[Johnny Au]

I hope this Tim Hudak character or the PCs gets into some kind of serious scandal. We need them out of power till Wave 2 has begun construction.

We need to prevent Hudak from doing what Harris did with Eglinton. We need to have the Eglinton Crosstown line dug far enough that filling it up would be more expensive than completing it.

Yes, the DRL should be built up to Eglinton.

 

[rbt]

I think a DRL from Downtown to Pape would be a difficult sell. It would be seen as serving only the downtown - and rightly so since I do not think enough people from East will make the transfer to make any real difference on the Yonge-Bloor Station dwell times. Dropping Finch and Sheppard could easily push the DRL up to Eglinton.

I expect the DRL will be the first project funded if Metrolinx receives taxation capabilitis. Second will be LakeShore electrification, and 3rd/4th/5th are various LRT projects (Mississauga, Hamilton, Kitchener/Waterloo).

If there is additional funding, DRL will be a part of it.

If there is not additional funding, Sheppard/Finch money won't be sufficient to build a DRL.


Offering up Sheppard/Finch for cancellation will not accelerate the DRL, it will only result in the cancellation of Sheppard/Finch. An Eglinton extension of the DRL will not be considered until the first phase is funded and nearing completion.

Fight for new money. Redistributing money already allocated will only help the provincial debt levels but not transit.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The DRL would have to go at least up to Eglinton in the first phase so it would start to act as an Eastern equivalent of the Spadina Line.

 

[nfitz]

"obi wynne kenobi, you are our only hope."

lol

 

[BurlOak]

I expect the DRL will be the first project funded if Metrolinx receives taxation capabilitis. Second will be LakeShore electrification, and 3rd/4th/5th are various LRT projects (Mississauga, Hamilton, Kitchener/Waterloo).

If there is additional funding, DRL will be a part of it.

If there is not additional funding, Sheppard/Finch money won't be sufficient to build a DRL.


Offering up Sheppard/Finch for cancellation will not accelerate the DRL, it will only result in the cancellation of Sheppard/Finch. An Eglinton extension of the DRL will not be considered until the first phase is funded and nearing completion.

Fight for new money. Redistributing money already allocated will only help the provincial debt levels but not transit.

The problem with new money is that it needs to be sustainable. I see several ways to raise money.

1) Detested "taxes" that are introduced by one government, but then cancelled by the next one. I would put the photo radar in this category.
2) Disliked taxes, that are very unpopular at first but then tolerated. I would say GST and HST would be in this category.
3) Accepted taxes, such as those brought in by referendum (or as part of a party platform). The US has examples of these.
4) Adored taxes, those that a strong majority of people just love. I don't think these exist in the real world.

The trouble is that a sizable proportion of Toronto's population did not like the current transit plan and wanted "subways". (Actually I think most mayoralty candidates campaigned on something other than Transit City). Note that the term "subway" was not rigidly defined. By ignoring their wishes and not being able to find a compromise to satisfy the essence of the public's desires, it will be much harder to convince them that the extra tax (i.e. tolls, fees, etc) would actually be put to good use. Thus, almost any tax that is imposed will fall into the first category. I think if ECLRT was built as a subway, and Sheppard and Finch were canceled, then it would be easier to bring in new taxes to build the DRL. I also think the farther north the DRL goes the better is can be sold, and the better it can perform its function of relieving the Yonge line - either by reducing transfers from Bloor or reducing transfers from buses at all stations farther north.

 

[innsertnamehere]

People wanted subways because they equated anything on the surface as streetcars. People in this city don't know any form of transit other than subways, so that is obviously what they want.

As for funding order, I wouldn't be surprised if the DRL is further to the back of the list. I expect the Kitchener electrification, Hamilton LRT, and Hurontario LRT in the first part, with the DRL and Yonge extension in the second part, and lakeshore electrification last after half hour service has been running for a while.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

People wanted subways because they equated anything on the surface as streetcars. People in this city don't know any form of transit other than subways, so that is obviously what they want.

And this is exactly why UT members are the only ones qualified to make transit decisions for Toronto.

 

[11th]

People wanted subways because they equated anything on the surface as streetcars. People in this city don't know any form of transit other than subways, so that is obviously what they want.

Ask yourself this, is ROW unique to LRT systems, or can streetcars (or "trams") systems also have them ; the same goes for signal priority. And do streetcars that have ROW uses simple low-level platforms? It's easy why some people will dismiss the TTC LRT as rebranded streetcars. (Except for the tunneled part of the Eglinton Crosstown, but we all know that's a subway running LRVs)

 

[gweed123]

I expect the DRL will be the first project funded if Metrolinx receives taxation capabilitis. Second will be LakeShore electrification, and 3rd/4th/5th are various LRT projects (Mississauga, Hamilton, Kitchener/Waterloo).

If there is additional funding, DRL will be a part of it.

If there is not additional funding, Sheppard/Finch money won't be sufficient to build a DRL.


Offering up Sheppard/Finch for cancellation will not accelerate the DRL, it will only result in the cancellation of Sheppard/Finch. An Eglinton extension of the DRL will not be considered until the first phase is funded and nearing completion.

Fight for new money. Redistributing money already allocated will only help the provincial debt levels but not transit.

Sheppard/Finch money definitely wouldn't be enough for a DRL, but Toronto may be able to cover the difference if they have the political will to do so.

Toronto I think is realizing that the DRL is a necessity, and that they're going to build it, one way or another. It'll just be a lot easier if the Province is on board as well.

 

[rbt]

Sheppard/Finch money definitely wouldn't be enough for a DRL, but Toronto may be able to cover the difference if they have the political will to do so.

The easiest way to do it is direct current operating subsidies into capital through a 30% fare hike.

I'm not sure we would go for a 10% property tax hike (5% for DRL, the other 5% is for vote buying).

Nearly every other option requires provincial legislation. A Toronto sales tax won't happen but a GTA sales tax for Metrolinx could.

Toronto I think is realizing that the DRL is a necessity, and that they're going to build it, one way or another. It'll just be a lot easier if the Province is on board as well.

The Province and Feds don't have an option but to get on board. It's their revenue streams that are impacted by congestion in Toronto, not the cities. Toronto doesn't have much economic oriented revenue.

The "do nothing" cost to the province is starting to get larger than the "build anything possible" cost.


In fact, I wonder if the new property tax revenue from new downtown condo buildings built as a result of congestion might even outweight the added costs congestion adds to fire/police service. TTC can get away with annual fare increases and a static operating subsidy.

 

[Catenary]

Ask yourself this, is ROW unique to LRT systems, or can streetcars (or "trams") systems also have them ; the same goes for signal priority. And do streetcars that have ROW uses simple low-level platforms? It's easy why some people will dismiss the TTC LRT as rebranded streetcars. (Except for the tunneled part of the Eglinton Crosstown, but we all know that's a subway running LRVs)

It's a very different point of view in Ottawa (where I currently am) which has just signed off on an LRT and the public usually refers to it as a Subway. Very similar to Eglinton; low platforms, "tram style" LRT trains (that are ridiculously long) and a tunnel in the middle, and the word on the street is "Did you hear about the subway they're going to build under downtown?" I haven't heard the term "streetcars" used by the public once!

 

[gweed123]

It's a very different point of view in Ottawa (where I currently am) which has just signed off on an LRT and the public usually refers to it as a Subway. Very similar to Eglinton; low platforms, "tram style" LRT trains (that are ridiculously long) and a tunnel in the middle, and the word on the street is "Did you hear about the subway they're going to build under downtown?" I haven't heard the term "streetcars" used by the public once!

I have, but it's usually meant as a derogatory term by people who want to see the project canned. "We shouldn't be wasting money on streetcars, we should be building roads instead" is usually the phrase. I even heard one person use the term "sewer tram". I was definitely taken aback by that one.

But you're right, in most circles it's either "the tunnel" or "the LRT". The tone of the debate in Ottawa is very different than in Toronto. The debate isn't over technology, it's about price. Speaking as someone who has been keeping track of both very closely, it's quite an interesting dichotomy.

I do think the shit is going to hit the fan though in the next couple of years, when the debate over the Western LRT extension alignment comes up (again). It will be a debate about cost and about routing, but again I don't think technology will really even enter the discussion.

 

[nfitz]

I have no doubt that once the project is up and running, and people are taking it every day, that they will colloquially refer to the line as a subway. Heck, if it only goes from Weston to Kennedy, I bet many people won't even take it east of Don Mills and be blissfully unaware that it has to run on the surface in parts of Scarborough.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Or maybe they'll call it the Crosstown, just as today we refer to the SRT as the RT.

 

[Torontovibe]

People wanted subways because they equated anything on the surface as streetcars. People in this city don't know any form of transit other than subways, so that is obviously what they want.

As for funding order, I wouldn't be surprised if the DRL is further to the back of the list. I expect the Kitchener electrification, Hamilton LRT, and Hurontario LRT in the first part, with the DRL and Yonge extension in the second part, and lakeshore electrification last after half hour service has been running for a while.

Did you ever stop to think, that many people in this city are drivers who NEVER use public transit and many of them, unfortunately, don't give a damn about what happens with transit. All they care about is getting to work faster, by car. For them, a streetcar or bus, just slows them down, so they want all transit underground and away from them. I've had this argument with selfish people at work, who hate any form of public transportation that's above ground. In fact, they don't want to see any of their tax dollars going to improve public transit but they figure subways are the lesser of all evils.

When I tell them that better transit, means less cars on the road, and therefore, less traffic for them, they just don't buy it. Common sense does not work on all people, even the intelligent ones. Some people just believe that public transit is so horrible and degrading, that no decent person would ever switch to it, even if it was improved. What can you do when you are dealing with attitudes like that? I really think that is why so many people support subways in public surveys. Well, that and if they keep demanding subways, nothing will ever get built, so all the tax dollars will just get spent for driving infrastructure. That seems to suit a lot of people's anti-public transit agendas.