[WislaHD]

I think that you really nailed it here by summarizing these long diatribes very well. In a nutshell: Toronto has a ton of parks and none of them are so perfect like the ones that people enjoy when they are in other cities and when they are in a good mood because they are on VACATION and candy-coat how great those ones are...again because they are in a good mood. Then, at least. Must be awful to come back here to this horrendous place that doesn't have a dark history and has freedoms, a market economy, safe streets, etc.

I don't think so. PaulF described how these plazas and public spaces are gathering places, for locals as much as they are for tourists, and I concur.

With respect to public spaces, i agree that so many other cities have great public sqaures. I spent a summer living in florence, and like many european cities, these squares tended to be outside churches or other public buildings. The are great gathering places. They become the feautre of the days social life and the starting point for many people's nights - lets meet at the duomo, or piazza x was a common discussion. And most interestingly, these places tended to attact a diversity of people. The city life was not confined to a gathering of youths like it is in many places in Toronto. The european urban lifestyle was an all ages affair - from kids to old folks.

 

[PaulF]

I think that you really nailed it here by summarizing these long diatribes very well. In a nutshell: Toronto has a ton of parks and none of them are so perfect like the ones that people enjoy when they are in other cities and when they are in a good mood because they are on VACATION and candy-coat how great those ones are...again because they are in a good mood. Then, at least. Must be awful to come back here to this horrendous place that doesn't have a dark history and has freedoms, a market economy, safe streets, etc.

I'm trying to find some more reliable data, but most of downtown Toronto has less than 1 hectare of parkspace per 1000 people, which is well below that of other cities...and compared to suburbs where this number is often higher and doesn't include private greenspace (i.e., backyards), the amount of greenspace for folks in the downtown part of the City is limited. (Numbers I have seen for Toronto generally vary between 1.5 to 3.2 hectares per person).

 

[Torontovibe]

^^ When they count parkland, is the wilderness areas along the ravine system (Don & Humber River ravines) counted as parkland? It's a huge area but much of it, seems to go practically unused. I wish more attention was paid to those hidden and neglected areas of Toronto. All I ever see in those ravines, are cyclists quickly passing through. So much could be done with all that valuable land. (and NO, I don't mean condos. I'm talking recreational purposes here) There is a whole lot of potential parkland down there.

 

[interchange42]

The Humber Valley, which I walk through on a regular basis between the lake and Old Mill Station, is being returned, bit by bit, to nature, with fewer grassy lawns. There's still lots of grassy lawn, mind you, if people want to use it. I'm happy to see much of it go wilder. We have coyotes, deer, foxes, giant snapping turtles, and of course lots of birds in the valley. Good! Not every patch of green space in Toronto needs to be actively programmed.

I'm pretty happy with what's taking place along the East Bayfront, in the meantime. Over time as the area develops the parks will no doubt become busy and well loved. PaulF's complaint that "no-one uses" the north side of Sherbourne Common is premature in advance of residential development, while the complaint that Corus and GBC are dead zones is bizarre. It all depends on when you're down there, and both buildings are often hopping.

Downtown Toronto does have too little parkland, but it is difficult to secure more of it. The City will be getting 1.6 acres up on Wellesley in the next year, and the First Parliament site will eventually contribute more public recreation space, but there aren't too many other locations where we might get some. Let's hope the eventual convention centre expansion does contribute a park deck over the railway tracks. Maybe we will get some public space at Mutual and Queen someday. Maybe we should be pushing for whatever Toronto General does with the land at Gerrard and Elizabeth to have a park component when the redevelop it. The Toronto Island ferries should be a TTC ride: either a token or a free transfer from the Harbourfront LRT or a flash of a Metropass.

Want more parks or better access to them? You have to tell your City Councillor, give them some concrete ideas, and encourage others to do so too.

42

 

[mrxbombastic]

All this talk that east Toronto is lacking good park space is wrong. especially about WT park space. Corktown Common is only one part of a much larger reconstruction and parkification of the Don River west bank. I agree that the biggest impediment to the Islands is the ferry ride fare. It should be run at cost, Not for a profit, though unintentional as that may be. The additionally I'd like to see some real return to intimate public alleys and niche spaces, which is where so much of the life and action of the European public realm takes place. Think of Yorkville connectivity everywhere! Toronto is seeing a growing excitement about pedestrianization of its space and in the end that will translate into pretty much better everything. Think of The Well at Front & Spadina

East Bayfront wont happen overnight and neither will the activity and population but its going to be great.

 

[marcus_a_j]

... That being said, I think we could benefit from that whole area south of the shipping channel being dedicated as park space. Even if the section north of "The Bar" and south of the shipping channel is developed, it will be so isolated from the rest of the portlands that I fear for its future. The channel creates a 'natural' barrier to define the entry into the parkspace south of it - start off with more urban and functional parks, and then transition into parks like Cherry Beach and Tommy Thompson, which are more rugged and wild. Once we add the kind of development planned for the east side of town to the mix, the parkspace as currently planned will easily become overwhelmed. What makes it great now is that there are places were you can go to escape...

The City and WaterfronToronto held a workshop on Wednesday where four land use concepts for the Port Lands were presented. Each concept had varying amounts of mixed use, "creative" employment uses, and more industrial-type land uses, located in various arrangements, north and south of the Shipping Channel. Some green space was identified south of the channel linking to Cherry Beach and the green space currently along the shore.

At the workshop we were put in groups to look at the concepts, and several groups did identify the area south of the channel to be all green space, while groups suggested some mix of green space and various land use arrangements.

You (and anyone else) can send in comments by March 19th by going to the Port Lands consultation website. I expect the land use concepts to appear on the website soon.

 

[PaulF]

A few follow-ups.

Regarding using the Don and other ravines as park spaces, this was recently suggested by Marc Ryan at PublicWork in the Star: http://www.thestar.com/bigideas/exp...to_a_worldclass_park_marc_ryans_big_idea.html

Personally, I think green spaces that reflect some semblance of wilderness or natural beauty are important in an urban setting, and not every green space needs to be an overly designed or manicured green space. That being said, I think there could be ways to draw more people into the ravines, but I would stop short of saying we should redevelop them to the point of being overrun with people. Interesting idea. Would be curious to see some thoughts on execution.

Regarding my "dead zone" comment in connection withe the GBC building, I should clarify that I don't think the area is a dead zone, but just that the GBC building itself is a dead zone in that there is nothing in terms of at-grade uses that animate the area. Maybe in fall and winter it is busier with students, but given that summer enrollment is usually a fraction of the main academic year, placing the GBC building where it is doesn't add much in terms of summertime animation. I agree the area is bustling, but that is in spite of the GBC building, not because of it. At least, there should be some publicly-accessible use at grade, like the restaurant in the Corus building.

Regarding my concerns with Sherbourne Commons North, I think the comment that my criticism is "premature in advance of residential development" illustrates my point exactly. Great public spaces draw people in. Sugar Beach is a great space as it draws people in despite the fact that there has been no residential development in the area. Cherry Beach draws people in despite the fact that the Portlands haven't been developed. I will concede that the north end of the Commons will become more animated as the area expands and evolves, but I think this will be because of necessity not because it is a great space people want to go to. The southern part of Sherbourne Commons is usually bustling with activity when the northern part is empty. It looked cool in an architect's rendering, but fundamentally misses the mark.

Regarding the Portlands Consultations, thanks for the link - I had wanted to attend the meetings, but only found out about them afterwards. I've submitted my feedback and suggestions - my preference being Land Use Option 2, as putting port uses south of the shipping channel will preserve the ability to redevelop the space as public use and park areas in the future, while dropping in mixed use developments will mean that future redevelopment will be impossible - plus the fact that the physical separation of the lands south of the channel will likely cause the isolation of whatever mixed use development is put there, which could lead to the 'slumification' of that area over time.

 

[JasonParis]

We seem to be developing condos on every square foot of city owned land as part of a short term cash grab and not recognizing that the waterfront represents out last great opportunity for public spaces, and a massive urban park.

Introducing Lake Ontario Park.

 

[Dan416]

I also really wish we could have the European style squares that draw people in. I feel like in Toronto discourages people from "loitering".

I think Dundas Square and Nathan Phillips Square are the closest things Toronto has.

But Dundas Square seems to have events that take over the space, rather than being inviting I feel like it's somewhat closed off when there's events there.

And the Jesus preacher and Free Info on Islam at the corner could really disappear.

 

[Tuscani01]

I also really wish we could have the European style squares that draw people in. I feel like in Toronto discourages people from "loitering".

I think Dundas Square and Nathan Phillips Square are the closest things Toronto has.

But Dundas Square seems to have events that take over the space, rather than being inviting I feel like it's somewhat closed off when there's events there.

And the Jesus preacher and Free Info on Islam at the corner could really disappear.

I find Dundas Square more inviting than NPS to be honest. NPS just feels too big, whereas Dundas Square feels 'cozy'. I enjoy sitting and people watching at Dundas Square more than I do at NPS and feel much more comfortable there. Depending on the event, I get what you are saying though. There are times when it feels like sitting around is just getting in the way of what is happening at the square. For the most part though, I find it better than NPS.

I think Berkzy Park functions a lot like a 'European style square'. I'd say it is one of the closest things we have.

 

[ehlow]

I find Dundas Square more inviting than NPS to be honest. NPS just feels too big, whereas Dundas Square feels 'cozy'. I enjoy sitting and people watching at Dundas Square more than I do at NPS and feel much more comfortable there. Depending on the event, I get what you are saying though. There are times when it feels like sitting around is just getting in the way of what is happening at the square. For the most part though, I find it better than NPS.

I think Berkzy Park functions a lot like a 'European style square'. I'd say it is one of the closest things we have.

Maybe we should start a thread to discuss public spaces.

I think Dundas Square is very good, but I think it can be improved. Too much of it seems empty while there isn't an event going on.

Maybe more patios, seating & food vendors would help.

European style squares are often concrete open spaces like Dundas Square with mid-rise buildings creating a street wall enclosing the square like a room. There are usually restaurants with patios on the sides and things like fountains in the middle. They are usually surrounded by pedestrian only narrow twisting roads full of people. Maybe we can make Dundas Square have more of these elements.

I don't think Nathan Phillips square is a very good public space personally, too much barren open space.

 

[PinkLucy]

I think that part of the issue is that Torontonians (and much of North America in general) simply don't take the time to sit down. We're always rushing off here or there, on our phones, whatever. Europeans will sit over a cup of coffee for hours or sit in the town square and visit with neighbours or just watch the world go by. Us? Not so much.

 

[ehlow]

I think that part of the issue is that Torontonians (and much of North America in general) simply don't take the time to sit down. We're always rushing off here or there, on our phones, whatever. Europeans will sit over a cup of coffee for hours or sit in the town square and visit with neighbours or just watch the world go by. Us? Not so much.

That's what they said about NYC before they "europeanized" Times Square and Broadway, and created squares with patio seating all over the city

 

[Tuscani01]

Maybe we should start a thread to discuss public spaces.

I think Dundas Square is very good, but I think it can be improved. Too much of it seems empty while there isn't an event going on.

Maybe more patios, seating & food vendors would help.

European style squares are often concrete open spaces like Dundas Square with mid-rise buildings creating a street wall enclosing the square like a room. There are usually restaurants with patios on the sides and things like fountains in the middle. They are usually surrounded by pedestrian only narrow twisting roads full of people. Maybe we can make Dundas Square have more of these elements.

I don't think Nathan Phillips square is a very good public space personally, too much barren open space.

But Dundas Square already has most of those elements you mentioned. It is surrounded on all 4 sides by buildings, and is enclosed like a room. There are restaurants on both sides, mind you one side has them several floors above street level, the other doesn't have a patio. There are also fountains which serve as a splash pad for children to cool off in during the summer. It has all of the elements it needs to be successful.

I think what PinkLucy mentions is the real issue. This is not Europe. We don't live the European lifestyle. People here feel the need to be busy 24/7 and leisure time is seen as a bad thing. If you're not busy, you're not being productive. If everything here closed at noon like a lot of places in Europe, I am sure much more attention would be paid to our public spaces, as for most, an hour would not be enough time to travel home. Public spaces would become home for that hour.

 

[Tuscani01]

That's what they said about NYC before they "europeanized" Times Square and Broadway, and created squares with patio seating all over the city

Times Square and Broadway benefit from the massive crush of tourists. It may be full, but how many of those people are actually residents of NYC vs tourists?