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Anna said:
1947
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Yeah. It's BS. I wish my grandfather were still alive to hear this kind of stuff.

Not that my dad's Irish background would have fared any better at that time...

It actually really angers me that Ford is throwing around these kinds of claims. The racism and bigotry of 1940s Toronto was not exactly subtle, to say nothing of the stuff that went on before the war. This was a city where signs saying "Irish and Jews need not apply" were far from unheard of, and now we have these kinds of assholes trying to set back the clock to 1947.
 
pud99 said:
Applies to all offices.

RF is Mayor until the midnight between Nov. 30 and Dec. 1.

If he is 'annointed' in Ward 2 the removal would apply to that. (As I read the Act, it is not limited to the particular office held by the offender at the time of the offence or of the finding that there was an offence. As I read it, the judge is to declare vacant the office held by the offender at the time of the finding that there was an offence.)

Ignorance and studpidity are not defences but might be raised to try to persuade the court to impose a lighter penalty (re the 7 year max). However, it has previously been found that RF is 'willfully ignorant' about COI and one would expect the same sort of finding for DF - especially re votes that took place after the finding that willful ignorance is shameful, not grounds for latitude.
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Ignorance and stupidity are a defence. The act has an escape clause:

Where the judge determines that a member or a former member while he or she was a member has contravened subsection 5 (1), (2) or (3), if the judge finds that the contravention was committed through inadvertence or by reason of an error in judgment, the member is not subject to having his or her seat declared vacant and the member or former member is not subject to being disqualified as a member, as provided by subsection (1). R.S.O. 1990, c. M.50, s. 10 (2).
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They just have to prove that their failure to declare a conflict was via a simple error in judgement, i.e., the numbers were so small, aliens at my homework, my mother-in-law was Jewish or some other flimsy excuse. Convincing a judge may take some work, however.
 
Riverdale Rink Rat said:
Chow had dealt with Toronto and its citizens for years and years -- she's been elected over and over again in this town. She has overcome negative bias, be it veiled racism or not, many times. Her low polling numbers in this election are the direct result of her poor campaign. This is the 'anti-Ford' election, and she tried to ignore that factor. The 'anti-Ford' voters decided Tory was their horse, and she's lost that voting bloc.

She could EASILY have been the 'anti-Ford' candidate if she had hit him hard, early on. She missed that opportunity, and it doesn't look like she'll get it back.
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FN represents 25-30% of the voters and they have drunk the koolaid.
That leaves Tory and Chow fighting for the remaining 70% which are probably the most informed voters.
Tory is a much better speaker than Olivia and has come off as more competent at the debates.
Olivia stumbles through many of her debate statements and often goes on tangents about "A Lady on the Bus".

So taking FN out of it.... and comparing only Tory to Chow...
Is it reasonable that Tory is beating Chow 2:1? 46% to 23%
 
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That's true, but Judge Hackland already dismissed that defence. And both Rob and Doug have already - and repeatedly - proclaimed that they help "everyone", as it it somehow makes it less a conflict of interest.
 
DeathSilver said:
Oh dear, Doug is such a scumbag. I hope the press picks up on this.
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Actually, nothing posted so far would prevent Karla from being regarded as Jewish by matrilineal tradition. All of her female forebears and other female relatives could have married non-Jews and/or converted to religions other than Judaeism; as long as she is lineally descended from a Jewish female then she is Jewish by matrilineal tradition (which does not recognize conversation as being effective).

Asking about her wedding only relates to finding at least some indication about whether she has ever given serious attention to being Jewish prior to Doug coming home fuming about the debate last night.
 
pud99 said:
Applies to all offices.

RF is Mayor until the midnight between Nov. 30 and Dec. 1.

If he is 'annointed' in Ward 2 the removal would apply to that. (As I read the Act, it is not limited to the particular office held by the offender at the time of the offence or of the finding that there was an offence. As I read it, the judge is to declare vacant the office held by the offender at the time of the finding that there was an offence.)

Ignorance and studpidity are not defences but might be raised to try to persuade the court to impose a lighter penalty (re the 7 year max). However, it has previously been found that RF is 'willfully ignorant' about COI and one would expect the same sort of finding for DF - especially re votes that took place after the finding that willful ignorance is shameful, not grounds for latitude.
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You're correct - but it's still crazy it takes so long to go through the process that the person is never removed for the actual term in which they committed the offence. As I said upthread, the justice of this is only likely to come if Ford wins and if Ford is healthy. Doug is unlikely to be in office at all.

As for ignorance/stupidity, I think we learned rather explicitly last time out that Rob actually thinks that he gets to make up his own definition of "conflict," regardless of what the law says. He buried himself on the stand and I can't imagine he'd do any better. Let's not forget, he was TOTALLY in conflict on the one that got to court; he only got off because it turned out the penalty itself was outside the Integrit Commish's jurisdiction. Ford didn't know that when he voted on the matter and he didn't know that when he was on the stand; he had a good lawyer.

It will be nice to have, on record, that the Fords were always as corrupt as the day is long. But I'm still not expecting the sweet satisfaction of them actually being removed from office.
 
animatronic said:
Not exactly - Doug Ford is someone who was born on third base and act like they hit a come-from behind grand slam home run. In extra innings. In the World Series. In Game 7.

Well, either that or his dad did.
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Before or after his Dad swam Lake Ontario, towing Marilyn Bell behind him?
 
Here's hoping that in some hazy memory he mixed Jewish with Pentacostal because to your average secular public school person they're both religions with curious traditions and sometimes call their buildings temples.

In his walk up Main today he seemed to be arguing that the EAs for Finch and Sheppard have already been completed. I far as I understand, that's true for LRTs, but in no way for the subway they keep promising. Such a whopper of a lie, but I haven't seen any mention of it anywhere.
 
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animatronic said:
Ignorance and stupidity are a defence. The act has an escape clause:



They just have to prove that their failure to declare a conflict was via a simple error in judgement, i.e., the numbers were so small, aliens at my homework, my mother-in-law was Jewish or some other flimsy excuse. Convincing a judge may take some work, however.
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But both of those defenses require that the person either overlooked the issue (i.e., knew it existed in a general sense but missed it in the moment by mistake) or formed a judgment that was wrong. If you are ignorant of the existence of the issue you do not merely overlook it by accident and if you did not think about the issue then whatever you did cannot be described as coming to a judgment on it, erroneous or otherwise. Therefore, I continue to think that ignorance or stupidity in the proper sense could only go to sentence on the barred from office aspect.

Not that this matters a lot, since it seems, especially from various RF statements, that they simply refused to understand that voting on the matters in question was improper and that it was their duty to find out if they were financially interested and refrain (i.e., it is not an answer to say 'I did not look and so I did not know', any more than it is an answer to say 'If I had looked I would have found a lot of connections and so would have had to abstain a lot' or to say 'It was OK to shot at someone because I'm a bad aim and missed.']
 
pud99 said:
Actually, nothing posted so far would prevent Karla from being regarded as Jewish by matrilineal tradition. All of her female forebears and other female relatives could have married non-Jews and/or converted to religions other than Judaeism; as long as she is lineally descended from a Jewish female then she is Jewish by matrilineal tradition (which does not recognize conversation as being effective).

Asking about her wedding only relates to finding at least some indication about whether she has ever given serious attention to being Jewish prior to Doug coming home fuming about the debate last night.
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Can someone ask Doug how his views on Judaism were formed by his wife's ancestry? Did his MIL take him to Temple? Did they ever discuss the Shoah with a survivor? Did they discuss discrimination in Toronto in the 40s and 50s? Did they ever sit down with the extended family and eat a Kosher meal?
 
JGHali said:
No doubt John Tory is a rabid anti-dentite. We've already established that he supports separate schools.

(I'm sad that there will be a day not long from now that no one will get these Seinfeld references...)
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It's already happening. I said "worlds are colliding!" to a whippersnapper not long ago and they had no idea what I meant (and this was in the context of a conversation about friend-poaching).
 
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