Glenco
Senior Member
As William Shakespeare would say “Hoist with his own petard “
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- Thread starter ION
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ChazYEG
Senior Member
It is extremely arrogant to adopt the superiority complex discourse, and yes, it borders on racism, especially when you single out "third world" but make no mention of the kind of systematic dismantling of the democratic institutions in the US, or the widely known oligarchical structure of South Korea, or the continuous use of the Notwithstanding Clause by the UCP in Alberta as examples of democratic erosion. It's not a matter of not agreeing with your argument, it is about the fact that the whole "third world" argument is arrogant and offensive, and as someone born in one of these countries, I reserve the right of feeling just as offended by it as you for being called out on it.
Bolsonaro was not jailed multiple times, only once, now, after being given all of his constitutional guarantees of a fair trial and ample defense. He was convicted by the countries Supreme Court in face of a mountain of evidence of his attempted coup d'etat. Lula was arrested once, and his conviction was overturned, but until such time as proof of his innocence came to light, him and everyone else, respect the rule of law. The reasoning for Rouseff's impeachment was questionable, but the procedure which resulted in it wasn't.
In 2023 the UCP had not abused the Charter and, until they did it, with the use of the Notwithstanding Clause, not once but twice in the span of a month, there was no talk about recall. They are abusing their position in power to an unprecedented degree, and the continuous use of the only constitutional clause that basically overrules any chance of dispute by the people is the most undemocratic thing possible. If they can invoke the clause for anything they want, because it is their policy goal, what is there to stop them from using it to impose anything on us, in spite of any Charter protections?
TravellingChris
Active Member
It's baffling that you either do not see or choose to ignore the fact that the erosion of democratic rights is much more prevalent in the Third World than in the First. Note that we are not seeing election results being overturned or political opponents being jailed in Ireland, the UK, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Australia, Japan, New Zealand or other First World countries but we are seeing it in the Third World.
It's also worth noting that while we are seeing significant numbers of people from the Third World claiming political asylum in EU countries, Canada, Australia and the United States, we are seeing few if any from the First World claiming political asylum in Third World nations. Do you know of any Albertans who have claimed political asylum in, say, South Africa or Brazil because they find the UCP government oppressive?
The comment about the "oligarchical structure" in South Korea is pointless as it has no legal bearing. It is neither illegal nor anti-democratic for large, successful businesses to operate in a given country. A number of industries in Canada, particularly banking, have been likened to oligarchies as well.
I never said Bolsonaro was jailed "multiple times". I included him in a list of Brazilian politicians whose treatment has been questionable. Both he and Lula have been jailed at certain times.
Again, you're defending attempts to overturn of the results of a democratic election because you don't agree with them. Would you agree if the NDP had won the 2023 election and UCP supporters were attempting to change the results of the election by launching recall drives in NDP-held ridings? Or would you insist that the NDP had won election fairly and had a right to carry out its mandate and that recall drives were the antithesis of democracy?
David A
Senior Member
Alberta conservatives have always been eager to sneak in more private care one way or another and really this is just another, the latest, ploy.
I feel where this will fall apart is how it generally does. First, public opinion realizes that it means better care only for those who can pay for it and worse for those who can not, secondly this comes into conflict with Federal health care funding laws.
Now, Smith doesn't seem to care about public opinion as much as her predecessors, although after a few recall campaigns perhaps she might. She also doesn't generally seem to care about the Feds, but Alberta really can not afford to do without Federal health care funding now, especially given current low oil prices.
Whattagame
Active Member
Someone in this thread doesn't remember the Battle of 66th Street.
With or without recall legislation, if you trample on people's rights enough, action will be taken. Apparently for some, people getting run over by buses is preferable peaceful, legal, and democratic processes.
With or without recall legislation, if you trample on people's rights enough, action will be taken. Apparently for some, people getting run over by buses is preferable peaceful, legal, and democratic processes.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
There was absolutely nothing questionable about his treatment. His arrest was precede by over 1 year of open, highly publicized investigation by the Federal Police, his indictment and trial followed every single proper legal procedure, he was given ample rights to defend himself, a fair trial and the right to an appeal.
Democratic processes and their failure are not only about legal issues. Large successful businesses operating in a country is a normal and positive thing, however having large businesses continuously interfering directly in government and policy decisions, with recurring cases of corruption involving high echelons of government and top executives, judges, prosecutors, etc, is definitely not a mark of good democracy.
It is interesting that you also conveniently avoided the topic of the US descent into authoritarianism that the entire world is watching. From the Gestappo-like ICE raids, to the consistent attacks by their leader on free speech (including media and ). I could go on this topic, but if you can't see it already, you won't.
Albertans, maybe not, but Brazil has received a number of asylum seekers from other countries, including a small, but still shocking and symbolic, number of Americans in 2025.
It is baffling that you refuse to acknowledge how undemocratic the UCP's actions are, simply steamrolling the Charter with the Notwithstanding Clause because they are afraid of having their policies contested in higher courts. This is not a matter of simple policy disagreement, it is about the fact that we have a provincial government willing to rule by decree, bypassing constitutional guardrails by using a clause that was designed to be a last resort, nuclear option to pass legislation where the Provincial government sees the Federal going against the province's interests. If they are willing to invoke that clause so casually, as they have done in the past month, this is a slippery slope, and at this point it would not shock me if they used it to dismantle the public healthcare system in the province, to impose legislation that could help perpetuate them in power or even to secede from Canada altogether.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
If the NDP had been elected and was making the same kinds of attacks on democracy the UCP is I would be first in line to sign recall petitions for my MLA.
Also, I don't see how a process that involves collecting tens of thousands or individual signatures, then triggers AN ELECTION is undemocratic. If the recall simply meant giving the seat to the opposing party with no byelection, sure. But the UCP could still run candidates (maybe different ones) and win. an MLA being recalled does not mean an automatic seat flip towards the NDP.
Gus Haynes
Active Member
This is such a sadly limited view of democracy. Democracy is not just an exercise of voting once every four years. There are a variety of democratic mechanisms to hold incumbents accountable and pressure change, ranging from letter-writing to public protest. The UCP has elected to add another mechanism, and people should feel free to use it, just as the UCP feels free to use the notwithstanding clause whenever it amuses them.
Gronk!
Senior Member
'Forever Canadian' petition verified as successful by Elections Alberta
About 13.6% of electors signed petition
A citizen initiative petition to make it official policy for Alberta to stay in Canada has been verified as successful by Elections Alberta.
The Alberta Forever Canada petition, also known as the "Forever Canadian" petition, needed 293,976 signatures to be successful. Elections Alberta said the petition had 438,568 valid signatures counted and 404,293 verified signatures after a random statistical sampling method was applied with a 95 per cent confidence level.
The Forever Canadian petition was launched to counter Alberta separatists who want a referendum on the province's independence.
The petition, launched by former deputy premier Thomas Lukaszuk asks: "Do you agree that Alberta should remain within Canada?"
Elections Alberta said it's estimated about 13.6 per cent of electors in the province signed the petition.
While the petition could trigger a referendum, Lukaszuk has previously said that his goal is to have Premier Danielle Smith call the petition's question in the legislature and have MLAs vote on it.
A copy of the petition's policy proposal was submitted Monday to the Speaker of the legislature, Elections Alberta said in a news release.
Elections Alberta said since the legislature is sitting, legislation requires the Speaker to bring the proposal before the assembly and within 10 sitting days, the government will have the proposal referred to a legislative committee.
The committee can either table a report on the policy proposal or table a report recommending it go to a referendum.
If a referendum is recommended, it must be held on or before the fixed date of the next provincial general election, which is Oct. 18, 2027.
CBC News reached out to Justice Minister Mickey Amery’s office about what next steps the government might take now that the petition has been verified as successful.
“We congratulate the group on gathering so many signatures in support of remaining in Canada,” Amery said in an emailed statement.
“Now that the petition has been verified, caucus and cabinet will discuss how to proceed under the legislation.”
Airboy
Senior Member
Nice to see the verified number so high.
Gronk!
Senior Member
Alberta Premier Danielle Smith latest target of an MLA recall campaign | Globalnews.ca
Alberta Premier Danielle Smith, the MLA for the riding of Brooks-Medicine Hat, appears to be the latest UCP MLA in the province to face a recall campaign
globalnews.ca
EtoV
Active Member
I'm sure a lot of people will blame the parents, but from talking to some teacher friends, the large class sizes is also causing issues by creating a bad environment for learning, with too many kids to control, and behavioral issues that don't have any resources allocated to those kids.
Underfunding education creates a feedback loop of bad outcomes.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-schools-chronic-absenteeism-9.6997358
Underfunding education creates a feedback loop of bad outcomes.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-schools-chronic-absenteeism-9.6997358
policyenthusiast
Senior Member
Alberta has implemented no-fault insurance (can't sue for damages after a claim), and a bill has already been proposed at the UCP AGM to repeal it. Found a year-old comment online (pre no-fault) that I found interesting:
Insurance is very poorly understood by the majority of people. A couple of factual points to begin with that are critical to understand to wrap your head around things:
-Insurers aren't as profitable as people think. Despite high premiums, personal auto insurance profitability is near zero, even subsidized in many cases by other insurance products.
-Premiums are based on risk - individual and collective. Insurance is not priced on the prior years payouts but on the anticipated payouts for the future. Insurers also require annual approval from the provincial government for their new base rates.
So why are premiums (or risk) going up? Well, in Alberta we have a few major contributors.
Frequent and severe catastrophic weather events. No other province has seen the scale we have. Ft McMurray fires, Calgary floods, hail storms, etc.
Litigation - too many people here expect a huge payday from minor collisions. Being rear ended doesn't mean you get a free vacation. Insurance goal is to indemnify you, or to put you back into the same place. Canada doesn't have the same type of "mental anguish" stuff like in the US, but too many Albertans think we live in the US and expect the same, and too many lawyers are happy to oblige.
Repair costs - I see so many people driving $100k+ fully loaded pickups. Been here 20 years, the old trucks you used to see are gone. Even the paint on vehicles today is more high tech to be chip resistant etc. Repair costs have inflated substantially with electronics too. This means what used to be $500 in repairs is now $3500+, outpacing inflation. Supply chain as well has caused massive inflation, Alberta auto industry still hasn't recovered from the Coutts border blockade for example. This stuff matters.
Rampant insurance fraud. Around 1/3 of all claims have an element of fraud. This ranges from a legitimate break in and theft, where somebody claims they had $300 Oakley's instead of $20 Walmart sunglasses, to full out fraudulent repair bills where a shop gets paid to use a new part but doesn't replace it at all.
Frequency of accidents. Want cheaper insurance? Stop getting into accidents. People need to slow down and begin paying more attention. Stop texting. I have a 4 way stop by my house that I see people just blow through without slowing down. Lack of enforcement by police and the courts has also contributed to people doing whatever they want.
People need to understand this. Premiums will continue to rise without substantial government intervention to tackle these items.
Also worth throwing it out there - insurance claims is a very tough job. The number of people who are verbally abusive has risen dramatically. If you have a claim, please just be kind - I understand there are bad adjusters out there, but most of them are just doing their best to tackle all the demands people have in an increasingly complex environment.
Insurance is very poorly understood by the majority of people. A couple of factual points to begin with that are critical to understand to wrap your head around things:
-Insurers aren't as profitable as people think. Despite high premiums, personal auto insurance profitability is near zero, even subsidized in many cases by other insurance products.
-Premiums are based on risk - individual and collective. Insurance is not priced on the prior years payouts but on the anticipated payouts for the future. Insurers also require annual approval from the provincial government for their new base rates.
So why are premiums (or risk) going up? Well, in Alberta we have a few major contributors.
Frequent and severe catastrophic weather events. No other province has seen the scale we have. Ft McMurray fires, Calgary floods, hail storms, etc.
Litigation - too many people here expect a huge payday from minor collisions. Being rear ended doesn't mean you get a free vacation. Insurance goal is to indemnify you, or to put you back into the same place. Canada doesn't have the same type of "mental anguish" stuff like in the US, but too many Albertans think we live in the US and expect the same, and too many lawyers are happy to oblige.
Repair costs - I see so many people driving $100k+ fully loaded pickups. Been here 20 years, the old trucks you used to see are gone. Even the paint on vehicles today is more high tech to be chip resistant etc. Repair costs have inflated substantially with electronics too. This means what used to be $500 in repairs is now $3500+, outpacing inflation. Supply chain as well has caused massive inflation, Alberta auto industry still hasn't recovered from the Coutts border blockade for example. This stuff matters.
Rampant insurance fraud. Around 1/3 of all claims have an element of fraud. This ranges from a legitimate break in and theft, where somebody claims they had $300 Oakley's instead of $20 Walmart sunglasses, to full out fraudulent repair bills where a shop gets paid to use a new part but doesn't replace it at all.
Frequency of accidents. Want cheaper insurance? Stop getting into accidents. People need to slow down and begin paying more attention. Stop texting. I have a 4 way stop by my house that I see people just blow through without slowing down. Lack of enforcement by police and the courts has also contributed to people doing whatever they want.
People need to understand this. Premiums will continue to rise without substantial government intervention to tackle these items.
Also worth throwing it out there - insurance claims is a very tough job. The number of people who are verbally abusive has risen dramatically. If you have a claim, please just be kind - I understand there are bad adjusters out there, but most of them are just doing their best to tackle all the demands people have in an increasingly complex environment.
TAS
Senior Member
Great insights.
trevorhayden
Active Member
UCP doesn't care about First Nations.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-the-path-kent-teskey-law-society-amery-9.7005143
RECALL them all
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-the-path-kent-teskey-law-society-amery-9.7005143
RECALL them all