[KevinT]

Correct, shunt enhancers were added to the train sets. However I wanted to keep the column easy to understand for the average person, hence the term equipment.

I don't see how shunt enhancers can make the Northlander any faster than the Canadian. They compensate for a low axle count, but since when has the Canadian ever been a low axle count train? CN has told VIA ''thou shalt have 32'. The Canadian has at least double, sometimes almost triple that, and yet its speeds are half what the Northlander is promising. It doesn't add up. Does it fit in more old passing sidings than the Canadian does?

 

[Milaisacat]

Two generations of Northlander.

 

[smallspy]

The short answer is... yes. This train is a Northern ON focused train. It is focused on bringing people to Toronto from the North, and to bring people from Toronto to the North. Not to be a commuter train for the GTA. The 2 stops in the GTA; Langstaff and Union makes sense from a Northerner perspective. Somewhere in farm country on the shores of Lake Simcoe does not.

From a GTA centric view, of course...it is only one stop....

If you want this train to be successful, then you want as many people riding it as is possible.

That may mean adding additional stops in other places if it meets the threshold for ridership.

Don't be a snob just because it's not your stop or region

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

If you want this train to be successful, then you want as many people riding it as is possible.

That may mean adding additional stops in other places if it meets the threshold for ridership.

Don't be a snob just because it's not your stop or region

Dan

This is not about being a snob, it is about understanding what is needed and doing that. Imagine if the people planning ALTO caved and stopped at every little town along the route. There comes a point when you need to see it and ask what is really needed. What is needed in the northern York/Durham Region is an extension of GO.

 

[NorthernTracks]

If you want this train to be successful, then you want as many people riding it as is possible.

That may mean adding additional stops in other places if it meets the threshold for ridership.

Don't be a snob just because it's not your stop or region

Dan

Spot on, and I can't stress this enough. More passengers is a good problem to have. It means that the government and Ontario Northland will have to expand the scope of the service, which means better service and increased seating capacity. Perhaps even warranting a second train in the future (at least up to North Bay, maybe even west to Sudbury and beyond @micheal_can ...)

To suggest the Northlander should solely cater to Northerners, cottagers in Muskoka or commuters outside of GO transit's network is incredibly short-sighted.

If anything, a stop in Beaverton or Pefferlaw ensures that politicians in Southern Ontario don't forget about the importance of this passenger train; an insurance policy if you will in case some future government decides to revisit divestment of the Northlander or Ontario Northland.

Northern Ontario needs all the political allies it can get. We're far from where the decisions are made at Queen's Park and we don't even come close to holding the balance of power.

May I remind you that in 2012, not one MPP along the entire route (that had a Northlander train stop) was sitting in government with the Liberals. They were in the opposition with either the Progressive Conservatives or the NDP. I believe that had one of them been in the McGuinty caucus, the Northlander's fate might have been different.

 

[lenaitch]

https://www.yorkregion.com/news/nor...cle_e192593a-a3c0-5e7c-826d-ac89e0abef76.html
Seems like those in Northern York Region feel sidelined by the Northlander passing right by them without a station.
One one hand, they market this as a way to get to Toronto better for more opportunities etc. and as some sort of "commuter rail" experience, and also as an easier way to access all the recreational activities up there and along Lake Simcoe.
On the other hand, this isn't really branded as some sort commuter rail, and the North in Northlander isn't York Region, it is Ontario. The likely timing for the trains is not optimized for those kind of trips, and is suited for longer distance travel.
Thoughts?

When I read lines like "the Port Bolster resort development in which he is involved" tells me all I need to know about the motivation. The new York region stops exist because there are existing GO stations.

Anyone who has been to Pefferlaw would not consider it for a modern train stop.

Is it really a big deal to add one stop? I mean it's not a rapid transit kind of thing...

Ya, it is. Since it is the CN mainline, it would involve their approval, land acquisition, signal changes, changes to their operation, maybe a siding. Add the cost of building the facilities (platform, parking access, etc.) all for one train each way per day, at roughly 0930 s/b and 1945 n/b. How would it improve tourism when you could only access it from the GTA in the evening?

 

[Bordercollie]

When I read lines like "the Port Bolster resort development in which he is involved" tells me all I need to know about the motivation. The new York region stops exist because there are existing GO stations.

Anyone who has been to Pefferlaw would not consider it for a modern train stop.


Ya, it is. Since it is the CN mainline, it would involve their approval, land acquisition, signal changes, changes to their operation, maybe a siding. Add the cost of building the facilities (platform, parking access, etc.) all for one train each way per day, at roughly 0930 s/b and 1945 n/b. How would it improve tourism when you could only access it from the GTA in the evening?

Isn't there a siding there at highway 48? That would be easy to build a station there.

 

[lenaitch]

Spot on, and I can't stress this enough. More passengers is a good problem to have. It means that the government and Ontario Northland will have to expand the scope of the service, which means better service and increased seating capacity. Perhaps even warranting a second train in the future (at least up to North Bay, maybe even west to Sudbury and beyond @micheal_can ...)

To suggest the Northlander should solely cater to Northerners, cottagers in Muskoka or commuters outside of GO transit's network is incredibly short-sighted.

If anything, a stop in Beaverton or Pefferlaw ensures that politicians in Southern Ontario don't forget about the importance of this passenger train; an insurance policy if you will in case some future government decides to revisit divestment of the Northlander or Ontario Northland.

Northern Ontario needs all the political allies it can get. We're far from where the decisions are made at Queen's Park and we don't even come close to holding the balance of power.

May I remind you that in 2012, not one MPP along the entire route (that had a Northlander train stop) was sitting in government with the Liberals. They were in the opposition with either the Progressive Conservatives or the NDP. I believe that had one of them been in the McGuinty caucus, the Northlander's fate might have been different.

Making the leap that, if they added a stop or two in the east Lake Simcoe area, and it somehow became wildly successful to the point that they needed longer trainsets, I'm not sure I get the economics of dragging that extra equipment , that has now been very much emptied, all the way to Cochrane, to satisfy a GTA commuter need that is better served by dedicated commuter rail.

 

[Bordercollie]

Making the leap that, if they added a stop or two in the east Lake Simcoe area, and it somehow became wildly successful to the point that they needed longer trainsets, I'm not sure I get the economics of dragging that extra equipment , that has now been very much emptied, all the way to Cochrane, to satisfy a GTA commuter need that is better served by dedicated commuter rail.

What is the capacity of the trainset? 200 people?

I would have thought that a cabbage car would make more sense with two coaches.

They could always rotate the third trainset between Toronto and North Bay and tag along if required if there is enough demand.

 

[lenaitch]

Two generations of Northlander.

View attachment 717796View attachment 717797

Not sure about the "generations" angle., except that the earlier Northlander was hauled by freight power with an APU.

I don't see how shunt enhancers can make the Northlander any faster than the Canadian. They compensate for a low axle count, but since when has the Canadian ever been a low axle count train? CN has told VIA ''thou shalt have 32'. The Canadian has at least double, sometimes almost triple that, and yet its speeds are half what the Northlander is promising. It doesn't add up. Does it fit in more old passing sidings than the Canadian does?

Other than that one post, there is no confirmation that shunt enhancers have been added to the trainsets, or are even approved for use in Canada.

 

[NorthernTracks]

Making the leap that, if they added a stop or two in the east Lake Simcoe area, and it somehow became wildly successful to the point that they needed longer trainsets, I'm not sure I get the economics of dragging that extra equipment , that has now been very much emptied, all the way to Cochrane, to satisfy a GTA commuter need that is better served by dedicated commuter rail.

I agree that the GTA commuter in those areas (Beaverton) would be better served with GO service. Seeing how GO has no plans to extend the Richmond Hill line or to reinstate the GO bus from Beaverton to Oshawa, some service might be viewed as better than nothing by local leaders.

Beaverton has gone as far as producing a feasibility study on the issue:

https://northerntracks.blog/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/letter-resumption-of-ontario-northland-rail-service-beaverton.pdf

Again, wild speculation here, but if ever there was an appetite to begin serving Sudbury (by way of the soon to be restored Northlander route), perhaps that extra equipment might prove useful (J-Train setup at North Bay, not unlike VIA's Montréal-Jonquière/Senneterre runs).

 

[smallspy]

This is not about being a snob, it is about understanding what is needed and doing that. Imagine if the people planning ALTO caved and stopped at every little town along the route. There comes a point when you need to see it and ask what is really needed. What is needed in the northern York/Durham Region is an extension of GO.

It's absolutely being a snob. Calling it a "train for the north" and then poo-pooing a stop in a location that is not part of Northern Ontario is evidence of that.

And to equate this with ALTO is just laughable. Never mind trying to compare apples and oranges - you're trying to compare apples and orangutans.

Other than that one post, there is no confirmation that shunt enhancers have been added to the trainsets, or are even approved for use in Canada.

There are no shunt enhancers on the trainset, nor are there going to be any on the other two still to be delivered.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

What is the capacity of the trainset? 200 people?

I would have thought that a cabbage car would make more sense with two coaches.

They could always rotate the third trainset between Toronto and North Bay and tag along if required if there is enough demand.

It's absolutely being a snob. Calling it a "train for the north" and then poo-pooing a stop in a location that is not part of Northern Ontario is evidence of that.

And to equate this with ALTO is just laughable. Never mind trying to compare apples and oranges - you're trying to compare apples and orangutans.

Picture this... 200 spots that are all reserveable and half get on and off at a spot close to Toronto. A great way for this to fail is if too many seats are for the short, lower fare rate distances. For this to be successful, we need the majority of passengers to be going the distance. If I had my way, no one should be able to reserve to get on at Langstaff going south and getting off going north. Kinda how the Corridor works with Via and certain stations.

 

[lenaitch]

Isn't there a siding there at highway 48? That would be easy to build a station there.

No clue where the sidings are and I no longer have a Trackside Guide. I know there is one at Brechin.

What is the capacity of the trainset? 200 people?

I would have thought that a cabbage car would make more sense with two coaches.

They could always rotate the third trainset between Toronto and North Bay and tag along if required if there is enough demand.

Capacity is 169 according to a government presser. No clue what a "cabbage" car is but I get the sense that interior layout options for the Siemens sets are limited.

We can only assume three sets is the minimum that was determined to be needed for reliable and consistent service. They will be based out of Cochrane with regular maintenance at VIA TMC. Changing the deployment would likely mean more sets.

I agree that the GTA commuter in those areas (Beaverton) would be better served with GO service. Seeing how GO has no plans to extend the Richmond Hill line or to reinstate the GO bus from Beaverton to Oshawa, some service might be viewed as better than nothing by local leaders.

Beaverton has gone as far as producing a feasibility study on the issue:

https://northerntracks.blog/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/letter-resumption-of-ontario-northland-rail-service-beaverton.pdf

Again, wild speculation here, but if ever there was an appetite to begin serving Sudbury (by way of the soon to be restored Northlander route), perhaps that extra equipment might prove useful (J-Train setup at North Bay, not unlike VIA's Montréal-Jonquière/Senneterre runs).

I simply don't get the logic that all routes have to be all things to all people. Should the VIA Canadian stop at all GO stations on its way in or out of the GTA? Should a flight to Vancouver stop at all airports between here and there, simply because they are enroute?

Each type of service fulfills a role, and I simply don't see Northlander (or Canadian for that matter) in a commuter role. I don't see the station times being of any benefit and adding a stop adds minutes to an already long schedule. I frankly don't see the benefit for the two GTA stops that were added to the original Northlander schedule, but maybe they were the price to pay for getting it through Cabinet. Dunno.

I would see the advantage of adding a (preferably) Brechin or even Beaverton stop (not Pefferlaw) but as a replacement for Washago. It would serve Orillia, eastern Lake Simcoe and be decently proximate to the City of Kawartha Lakes area. In terms of separation, Washago is quite close to Gravenhurst so has little catchment area to the north. Brechin is only 5-10 minutes further from Orillia than Washago and would a potentially larger catchment area. That's just me spitballing.

 

[crs1026]

Having a siding in no way gives a location an advantage as a station.

I'm not concerned about a train on the current schedule becoming a "commuter" train serving the east side of Lake Simcoe.

One station is not a major operational constraint - but the cost is not trivial. Land up that way is not cheap, and the presence of so many heavy freights may lead CN to ask for more in terms of security, fencing, separation of roads or parking from the platform, and even staffing during station hours.

Having said that, one station only is all that should be considered. Where that station is located may be a local political bunfight, but it deserves a lot more rigour in numbers and transportation access than this list is likely able to offer. Can't wait to watch the Minister squirm over that one.

Having people from that area compete for seats with the longer distance passengers would be a nice problem to have. I'm guessing that this won't happen at first.

If the full Timmins-Toronto service only runs four days a week, creative scheduling might allow a Toronto-North Bay turn on some of the other days. Instead of going all the way north, the consist would simply lay over at North Bay and come back down.

Having said all of that, if it turns out that the train is popular south of North Bay but not so much north of there....well, that will be an interesting dilemma.

- Paul