[Jspr]

Lets this be a lesson CoE: fancy roadscapes and paving stones do not entice development. Direct subsidization does. Let's keep putting money where we get results.

Imagine if they had established a MDC like Calgary did to maximize the potential of the CRL. Look at East Village vs Quarters.

 

[TAS]

Imagine if they had established a MDC like Calgary did to maximize the potential of the CRL. Look at East Village vs Quarters.

As noted as well, Calgary has 4x the dt office jobs we have - so more demand/desire to live downtown.

The main reason we're seeing new residential now is not only the incentives, but because there is a demand/desire for student housing.

Outside of students, how much desire is there?

 

[David A]

Moving the quote above from Lilac thread.

I'm wondering if we just need to reimagine our downtown and the Quarters to better fit new realities.

We noted our downtown is not going to be a place where families live. And are we going to attract traditional 9-5 office jobs to our downtown? Or are we holding onto old models of planning and doing things (like having dt office workers at their desk 5 days a week)?

I'm going to use the biotech company Future Fields on 105Ave and 112st where they expanded into a new warehouse for their operations as an example.

Does the Quarters need to be developed as a residential area or do we let that go and get new, non traditional downtown jobs into our core such as Biotech and Advanced Research or other types of industry supporting employment?
Lets get new types of non head office or non-corporate jobs downtown to support our desire for more residential and services that reflect Edmonton's strengths, potential, and current challenges.

Precision Labs (dynalife) is another example of maybe what we need to focus more on in our core - or downtown jobs related to employment sectors that students are taking at Norquest, NAIT and MU which could create new opportunities for those programs and our downtown.

Townhomes to start to fill some of the empty lots in this area could help, but please not cheap and ugly ones! Redeveloping the whole area at once could work well, like sort of was done in Rossdale.

I'm not sure if it is incompetence, a sense of inferiority or just a reluctance to compete against other cities that has kept our city from making more of an effort to attract offices downtown, but whatever it is we need to get over it if we want to have a much more healthy downtown. Not to say we can't have non head office jobs downtown and that may be part of the solution, but downtown is naturally more suited for corporate offices rather than say warehouses or emerging industries.

Yes, Precision Labs for example has filled a big empty space but I unfortunately don't feel it has contributed much to the vibrancy of the area. Ironically, you can't even get a lab test nearby anymore.

For whatever reasons, we seem to keep trying to avoid dealing with the fundamental issue of attracting more good corporate jobs to downtown and until we deal with it our downtown will continue to languish.

 

[TAS]

Townhomes to start to fill some of the empty lots in this area could help, but please not cheap and ugly ones! Redeveloping the whole area at once could work well, like sort of was done in Rossdale.

I'm not sure if it is incompetence, a sense of inferiority or just a reluctance to compete against other cities that has kept our city from making more of an effort to attract offices downtown, but whatever it is we need to get over it if we want to have a much more healthy downtown. Not to say we can't have non head office jobs downtown and that may be part of the solution, but downtown is naturally more suited for corporate offices rather than say warehouses or emerging industries.

Yes, Precision Labs for example has filled a big empty space but I unfortunately don't feel it has contributed much to the vibrancy of the area. Ironically, you can't even get a lab test nearby anymore.

For whatever reasons, we seem to keep trying to avoid dealing with the fundamental issue of attracting more good corporate jobs to downtown and until we deal with it our downtown will continue to languish.

Precision Labs hasn't contributed much to the vibrancy of the area? How are they different from TD or Enbridge office workers, for instance? Do they not walk around during a break or lunch or support any of the dt eateries as much as other dt-based companies? What insights do you have in this regard related to Precision Labs?

 

[Gronk!]

All I know is that until about 2 years ago, it would take me 10 minutes to walk down to the Precision Labs on Jasper Ave and 104 St for a blood test. Now I'm forced to drive down a traffic light infested 104 Ave to the Brewery District for same blood test.

Why can't Precision Labs (across from Commerce Place) offer the same services as the Brewery District location? Or does it make too much sense?

 

[David A]

Precision Labs hasn't contributed much to the vibrancy of the area? How are they different from TD or Enbridge office workers, for instance? Do they not walk around during a break or lunch or support any of the dt eateries as much as other dt-based companies? What insights do you have in this regard related to Precision Labs?

Well for one TD Bank has a branch that many customers both commercial and individual go to, some fairly regularly. In all the years it has been there, I have never set foot in Precision Labs or its predecessor. Perhaps it is partly the layout, the lab space itself does not seem very vibrant unless you like big blank walls.

Also there isn't even a restaurant or coffee shop in their building, so whatever they are contributing to vibrancy is not obvious. I don't know maybe they mostly eat lunch in the office.

 

[TAS]

Well for one TD Bank has a branch that many customers both commercial and individual go to, some fairly regularly. In all the years it has been there, I have never set foot in Precision Labs or its predecessor. Perhaps it is partly the layout, the lab space itself does not seem very vibrant unless you like big blank walls.

Also there isn't even a restaurant or coffee shop in their building, so whatever they are contributing to vibrancy is not obvious. I don't know maybe they mostly eat lunch in the office.

People want more workers downtown because having more people downtown contributes to vibrancy except if you work at Precision Labs 5 days a week apparently. I work in a dt office building. We don't serve the public on site at our workplace nor do we have any other public services in our building. It's a corporate downtown office - that's it. I thought that's what people wanted - more people to work downtown. We don't have a coffee shop in our building - so you know what that means - people go to District or Fawkes etc for their latte.

 

[thommyjo]

Moving the quote above from Lilac thread.

I'm wondering if we just need to reimagine our downtown and the Quarters to better fit new realities.

We noted our downtown is not going to be a place where families live. And are we going to attract traditional 9-5 office jobs to our downtown? Or are we holding onto old models of planning and doing things (like having dt office workers at their desk 5 days a week)?

I'm going to use the biotech company Future Fields on 105Ave and 112st where they expanded into a new warehouse for their operations as an example.

Does the Quarters need to be developed as a residential area or do we let that go and get new, non traditional downtown jobs into our core such as Biotech and Advanced Research or other types of industry supporting employment?
Lets get new types of non head office or non-corporate jobs downtown to support our desire for more residential and services that reflect Edmonton's strengths, potential, and current challenges.

Precision Labs (dynalife) is another example of maybe what we need to focus more on in our core - or downtown jobs related to employment sectors that students are taking at Norquest, NAIT and MU which could create new opportunities for those programs and our downtown.

Yeah, I guess me arguing for townhomes is me suggesting a pivot from traditional downtown thinking.

The quarters was envisioned as like an eastern version of Oliver. High density, towers, some office, etc.

But I think a more realistic vision is the denser parts of cloverdale/griesbach/blatchford.

So still decent density, but very much not highrises. But it all needs to happen at once to completely revamp the area. It can’t be one midrise at a time cause that’ll be decades from desirability. We need an Olympic village type undertaking.

 

[David A]

People want more workers downtown because having more people downtown contributes to vibrancy except if you work at Precision Labs 5 days a week apparently. I work in a dt office building. We don't serve the public on site at our workplace nor do we have any other public services in our building. It's a corporate downtown office - that's it. I thought that's what people wanted - more people to work downtown. We don't have a coffee shop in our building - so you know what that means - people go to District or Fawkes etc for their latte.

Well you asked how it is different than say TD Bank. I realize there are also offices in higher floors the public does not go to in office towers, but Precision is on the main and pedway level and doesn't seem to contribute as much to the vibrancy of the street as many other things could. Yes, the people working there probably do contribute somehow but unfortunately this is probably not the best example.

 

[TAS]

Yes, the people working there probably do contribute somehow but unfortunately this is probably not the best example.

The point was about bringing more workers to the downtown (more non traditional types of workers) and a worker at Precision is no different than a worker at Enbridge or TD office towers in terms of their individual contributions to vibrancy such as walking the downtown streets outside of their place of work and patronizing dt businesses. I wasn't talking about how much a medical lab versus a bank versus a parking lot contributes to street life. Just the people themselves being downtown. The people.

 

[buildings]

I feel that the Quarters is a failed experiment in social engineering by the City. Enough time has passed to render that verdict in my opinion. City should offer up the lands for sale and let the market do its thing. Maybe offer up cascading discounts. Purchase one lot at $X (market value). Buy a second at 90%X, third lot for 80%X and so on. The city is leaving a lot of property tax income on the table.

 

[Kosy123]

e4c project seems to have gotten a BP now. So that’s at least two projects happening in the Quarters, with the Dub student housing being the other.

 

[Edmcowboy11]

I feel that the Quarters is a failed experiment in social engineering by the City. Enough time has passed to render that verdict in my opinion. City should offer up the lands for sale and let the market do its thing. Maybe offer up cascading discounts. Purchase one lot at $X (market value). Buy a second at 90%X, third lot for 80%X and so on. The city is leaving a lot of property tax income on the table.

Except how much land in the Quarters actually belongs to the city. Problem as far as I know, there is there are more land speculators owning all the land and are just happy to sut on their property.

 

[David A]

Again an argument for a higher tax rate for lots that are left empty for a long time.

 

[kcantor]

Except how much land in the Quarters actually belongs to the city. Problem as far as I know, there is there are more land speculators owning all the land and are just happy to sut on their property.

And you can make that statement because you have an inventory of all the lots in the Quarters and who owns them and when they were acquired? I no longer have access to that information but the last time I did most of the land in the quarters that wasn't owned by the City was owned by businesses or individuals who had owned them for decades and they weren't bought to speculate on land values.

I am still regularly in touch with a number of those owners who would develop their lots or repurpose the buildings on them in a heartbeat if there was sufficient demand at rents that would support the development/redevelopment costs of doing so. It's not their fault the numbers don't work and those numbers won't work any better for anyone else either. Real estate values and development activity is a supply and demand equations and the problem in the Quarters is a lack of demand, not a lack of supply.