[Lone Primate]

I wish he had become mayor... then we wouldn't have been saddled with do-nothing Miller.

I can't think of anyone I really wanted to become mayor last time out. Hazel's already got a job.

 

[Lone Primate]

but whoever does it will lose the catholic vote.

Cripes, they got rid of the denominational school system in Quebec; how hard could it be? I'm for folding the sep. school system into the public school system too. Anyone who wants some kind of education to keep their little darlings from being contaminated by the "other" kinds of Canadians he or she will be ill-equipped to deal with as adults can do so on their own nickel. You pray, you pay. But they're not excused from paying for the public system; that's the basis for maintaining into the future the infrastructure we all depend upon; it's part of the price of admission to the national ride.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The average Catholic school kid is less religious than the average public school kid.

 

[Edward Skira]

I went to Catholic school and the religion part was a very minor part of it. In religion class we would learn about remaining celebate until marriage. In sex ed we would be taught to use a condom. And the non-Catholics could opt out of any of the religious stuff. The jesuits were quite practical about things.

 

[Lone Primate]

I went to Catholic school and the religion part was a very minor part of it. In religion class we would learn about remaining celebate until marriage. In sex ed we would be taught to use a condom. And the non-Catholics could opt out of any of the religious stuff. The jesuits were quite practical about things.

You know, now that you come to mention it, maybe we ought to be funding the schools of other religions... so long as they adopt the same standards and teach the provincial curriculum. Hmmm.

 

[junctionist]

all this started because of the shooting at C.W. Jefferys.

somehow, if this was a religious school, it would have never happened because religious people or people raised with religious values never do bad things.




god bless poor analysis & correlations where there aren't any. after all, if it wasn't for humans making connections where there aren't any, we wouldn't have religion, psychics, racism, prejudice, etc.

the fact that tory is courting the religious vote shows that he has absolutely no meaningful platform.

all public funding for any religious school should be abolished. it's not the governments responsibility to support parents forcing their children to think a certain way.

Then why do you have prejudice against any religion, and why do you assume that all parents force their children to think a certain way?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Then why do you have prejudice against any religion,

i don't understand this question in relation to what i said. please explain.

and why do you assume that all parents force their children to think a certain way?

if you send your kid to a religious school, you are making your kid think a certain way.

ask most parents "why do you want to send your kid to a catholic school?" and they will tell you it's because they want that kid to be raised with catholic values meaning that they want their child programmed to be catholic. but there are some parents who will send their kids to catholic school because they are under the impression that they are safe.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

For all the programming people think goes on in Catholic schools, the average kid probably comes out of a public school more religiously programmed. I only had 1 year's worth of "Catholic" religion courses in high school. Catholic schools are extremely multicultural, more than enough so that the influence of multicultutral peers completely cancels out a prayer after O Canada and monthly liturgy assemblies.

Let's turn this thread into a religious flamewar: most other proposed schools, whether they be Jewish schools, Muslim schools, black schools, etc., would be insular and homogenous, possibly guaranteeing conservative fundamentalist programming.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

For all the programming people think goes on in Catholic schools, the average kid probably comes out of a public school more religiously programmed. I only had 1 year's worth of "Catholic" religion courses in high school. Catholic schools are extremely multicultural, more than enough so that the influence of multicultutral peers completely cancels out a prayer after O Canada and monthly liturgy assemblies.

Let's turn this thread into a religious flamewar: most other proposed schools, whether they be Jewish schools, Muslim schools, black schools, etc., would be insular and homogenous, possibly guaranteeing conservative fundamentalist programming.

multi-culture is not the issue here. and this isn't a flame war. i was brought up in the catholic school system, an all boys school, and it didn't prepare me for the real world. i lost the ability to communicate confidently with females of my age because i was separated from them and all the so called values i learned, i've been having to shed in order to cope with the real world.

don't get me wrong, i had a good time in catholic school, had lots of friends, got along great with the teachers, etc. and this is probably why i became more devout to the programming when i finished school. i felt good while going to catholic school but feeling good isn't necessarily being good. i believed in alot of things not knowing why. the obedient person i was slowly shaped into was easily exploited by employers. i remember while going to a college entrance exam, i raised my hand to ask permission to go to bathroom and i felt pretty stupid when i realized i didn't have to.

i can go on and on but i won't. the bottom line is that you go to school to learn, not to persist in delusion.

i'm sorry if that sounds harsh but i'm not going to filter it through passive aggressiveness like the teachers and priests did.

 

[ShonTron]

For all the programming people think goes on in Catholic schools, the average kid probably comes out of a public school more religiously programmed. I only had 1 year's worth of "Catholic" religion courses in high school. Catholic schools are extremely multicultural, more than enough so that the influence of multicultutral peers completely cancels out a prayer after O Canada and monthly liturgy assemblies.

I went through 14 years of Catholic school education. I'm certainly not "programmed" but there is some differences between Catholic elementary (no admission without a Baptismal Certificate) and Catholic secondary (come one, come all, but please, parents, identify yourselves as Catholic board supporters on the tax forms). Catholic elementary schools are more religiously focused - after all a lot of Grade 2 focuses on preparations for Confession and First Communion, Grade 8 on Confirmation (ah, Catholic rites).

But I was never taught creationism. Education was of very good quality and about 90-95% of the education was free of any religion. However, our sex-ed books in elementary school (starting at grade 5, through grade 8) were a book series called "Being Alive", which was approved by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, so while the reproductive system was taught, like everyone else, Catholic values were also found throughout. Condom use was never taught at all, but in high school, remember having to watch a video on "born-again virgins".

Though I was able to ask good, deep questions on dogma and ideology and got good answers. I wrote an essay sponsored by the Catholic Women's League questioning the Church's stance on euthanasia, and got first prize. Tolerance was certainly taught and enforced, and high school, free of need for a Baptismal certificate, there were Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Protestants, athiests, Buddhists, Hindus. After Grade 9 and 10 religion, Catholic education was off the curriculum, instead being a World Religions course, a Philosophy course.

The Catholic system is fairly non-religious for a religious school system. However, I think the best solution is one public system.

Why?
- Save some money without sacrificing education quality. Less busing, for example because schools could/should be closer to home. Instead of two schools struggling to stay open, there would be one fully used facility. A little less money spent on administration. Special needs education would not be partitioned, so classes could be closer to home and able to serve more people. Money saved should go back into the system though to fix problems with cut programs.

- Solve the issue of "discrimination". The issue won't go away with John Tory losing the election over his planned "solution".

Let's turn this thread into a religious flamewar.

Let's not.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Prometheus: that atmosphere doesn't really exist in Catholic schools anymore. When I said multicultural, I really meant multi-every type of person...for reasons such as you mentioned, I think all-boys or all-girls schools should be private.

The TDSB would probably save money if the TCDSB swallowed it.

I was being flippant about the flamewar. Many people oppose additional government sanctioned religious schools because they're tantamount to gonvernment sanctioned fundamentalist training grounds. Whether or not their fears are rational, the Catholic boards are used for comparison. But the Catholic boards are quite "public," more so (I think) than other religious schools would be, both in terms of how they're run and the student body. Would there even be other religious school boards? Or just a series of independent schools populated by kids whose parents receive standardized private school subsidies?

 

[allabootmatt]

"Except with the reglious lobbies (the headline in a recent Jewish Tribune: "McGuinty Vows to Maintain Discrimination in Ontario")"

Oy. I really get steamed at the excesses of some of my co-religionists.

Worth keeping in mind, though, that the Trib is sort of the hard-right, north-of-Steeles Jewy paper which I suspect has a far lower circulation than the (much) more moderate CJN

 

[junctionist]

i don't understand this question in relation to what i said. please explain.

It sounded from your post that you were stating religion in general is like racism as fundamentally flawed due to poor logic ("making connections where there aren't any"). In one sentence, you put religion, psychics, racism and prejudice in one category as if there were a link in all of them. Also, you sounded bitter with the "God bless" openings.

if you send your kid to a religious school, you are making your kid think a certain way.

ask most parents "why do you want to send your kid to a catholic school?" and they will tell you it's because they want that kid to be raised with catholic values meaning that they want their child programmed to be catholic. but there are some parents who will send their kids to catholic school because they are under the impression that they are safe.

I don't think I can blame a Catholic parent for wanting their child exposed to Catholicism as it's part of their heritage. The parent knows the school will also teach the Ontario curriculum which also exposes the child to values that aren't Catholic (as plenty of anecdotes in this thread have suggested). It's not a matter of forcing, merely familiarizing.

As for safety, I doubt Catholic schools are safer. Bullying, vandalism and drugs are still issues, just like at a public school. And you're right, that's poor judgment on the part of the parents if they're only sending their children to a Catholic school for that reason. I think that merging the two school boards could work while keeping the schools open, or possibly converting some schools to other faiths. No small private school should get public funding.

 

[doady]

I don't think I can blame a Catholic parent for wanting their child exposed to Catholicism

No offense but Catholics and Christians in general want EVERYONE to be exposed to their religion. They put so much effort to converting the "heathens."

In my personal experience, when a Bhuddist marries a Catholic, the Catholic or the Catholic's family will ask the other to convert. I've seen it happen it so many times. The reverse is never happens.

I also got a few calls from Christian organisations promoting their church or Bible study or whatever. It just sad they use telemarketers to promote their religion. The other religions don't do anything like this. I've even had coworkers try to convert me to Christianity, giving me a copy of Awake or Jehovah Watchtower or whatever. Shit, Christians will even go into a Muslim country in the middle of war and try to convert them, like those Koreans in Afghanistan.

Remember residential schools? Modern Catholic schools aren't nearly as bad or course, but it has much the same purpose.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

my replies in bold....

It sounded from your post that you were stating religion in general is like racism as fundamentally flawed due to poor logic ("making connections where there aren't any"). In one sentence, you put religion, psychics, racism and prejudice in one category as if there were a link in all of them. Also, you sounded bitter with the "God bless" openings.

there is a link to all of them: they can't be proven through science and rely on linking things that shouldn't be linked.

examples:

"if i can program a computer, then someone must of programmed me"

"if this person is bad, it must be because his color is different than mine"

"if you got cancer, it must be because these rocks have evil spirits. yes, i can pick up some evil spirits in these rocks. throw them away"



and yes, i am bitter. 25 years of being catholic, some of those years being seriously devout, did that to me. i learned the hard way that religion isn't for everyone. this is why i am very against the government providing funding for religious education. if it is there, it will be used, the more exposed a person is to it, the more it will sink in.




I don't think I can blame a Catholic parent for wanting their child exposed to Catholicism as it's part of their heritage. The parent knows the school will also teach the Ontario curriculum which also exposes the child to values that aren't Catholic (as plenty of anecdotes in this thread have suggested). It's not a matter of forcing, merely familiarizing.


i don't really blame them either. i blame the church. alot of catholics i know baptize their children because they are afraid that their children will be possessed by satan or become sick, like it offers some form of supernatural protection. some christians i have encountered have made the argument that not exposing children to the teachings of christianity is tantamount to child abuse! the other day, i saw a jehova's witness who wanted to give me some papers. i said not thanks but she insisted. i must have said no thanks like ten times but she went on and on telling me that the fires in greece mean that jesus is coming or something. there were a whole bunch of people around but she picked me because she saw that i was in a wheelchair and must have assumed that i was easy prey.


as for parents wanting to expose their children to religion because of heritage, i hate to make the comparison, but it is valid - should a parent expose their child to LSD because they were on acid in the 60's?

this comparison is valid IMO because both religion and LSD make you believe in things that aren't there and other people can't see. the only difference is that one works through faith and the other through chemical distortion of the senses.

both can be beautiful if taken in the proper doses and the effects are understood and if you are in the right set and setting, if your not and things go wrong, it can be disaster. we know that religion is not a thing for everyone, so why must it be administered to everyone? let people make their own choices at an age when they are mature enough to fully understand the potential and consequences. everything is not for everyone.



As for safety, I doubt Catholic schools are safer. Bullying, vandalism and drugs are still issues, just like at a public school. And you're right, that's poor judgment on the part of the parents if they're only sending their children to a Catholic school for that reason. I think that merging the two school boards could work while keeping the schools open, or possibly converting some schools to other faiths. No small private school should get public funding.

No offense but Catholics and Christians in general want EVERYONE to be exposed to their religion. They put so much effort to converting the "heathens."

i understand this mindset because i was there. it seemed like tolerance of other religions was just a front, showing how nice we were in order to get everyone on our side.

In my personal experience, when a Bhuddist marries a Catholic, the Catholic or the Catholic's family will ask the other to convert. I've seen it happen it so many times. The reverse is never happens.

I also got a few calls from Christian organisations promoting their church or Bible study or whatever. It just sad they use telemarketers to promote their religion. The other religions don't do anything like this. I've even had coworkers try to convert me to Christianity, giving me a copy of Awake or Jehovah Watchtower or whatever. Shit, Christians will even go into a Muslim country in the middle of war and try to convert them, like those Koreans in Afghanistan.

it's absolutely retarded. risking life in such a situation for no good reason with no protection. does anyone remember the guy in the lions cage that tried to convert the lion? what would make a person do such a foolish thing??

Remember residential schools? Modern Catholic schools aren't nearly as bad or course, but it has much the same purpose.