[steveintoronto]

Just catching up on posts:

No doubt that in relative terms, Ford gave ample warning about the change in Council size, while the judges ruling has resulted in last minute chaos. The Notwithstanding Clause will restore calm to the situation.

And pigs can fly. Doug Ford says so.

Trudeau? How? It was the provincial premiers who pushed for it, led by none other than Bill Davis and Romanow if I remember correctly. I don't believe the early drafts of the Charter of Rights contained one.

It was hardly a new idea, and a much stronger notwithstanding clause was in the 1960 Canadian Bill of Rights - years before Trudeau entered politics or even joined the Liberal Party! Are you suggesting that Trudeau - a blacklisted wannabe teacher at the time, and member of the CCF, was whispering in Diefenbaker's ear?

What?

I think best you quote references, but read them first.
------------------------

Here's Brian (Mulroney) talking Notwithstanding, in one of the most diplomatic and encouraging speeches ever that I can recall. He's become a real statesman, not a politician per-se, and as much as he's trying to keep his feet dry, he's not scared of wading into the water. Unfortunately I have no text transcript for this, watch the two part video, and he clearly states he's in opposition to Carolines claimed support for NWS (Notwithstanding).

@Miscreant especially, I'd like your read on this. All his 'recollection' absolutely jibes with what I've been reading on, but I think I see a spark in the man...but I might be reading my own wishes into this...I get the impression he's not going to let this idly go by.

Btw: I'm not entirely sure Justin's 'stepping back' is all it seems. He may be part of a diplomatic two-step to keep his hands clean while others are working behind the scenes. Is this 'duplicitous'? lol...Ford has thrown the sucker punch. He's the one who's declared himself Il Duce. Time to support the "Resistance".

 

[steveintoronto]

I bet Justice Belobaba had no clue that the notwithstanding clause could be invoked over this, and as such is kicking himself over this portion of the decision:

He had to know, he is a Constitutional Scholar and his jurisprudence is practiced on it. He had to make his judgement distinct from whatever might come after.

I'm not saying politically this is a good idea and/or will happen, but the City could appeal the decision on the basis of the failure to make a decision regarding the unwritten principles argument. If the Court of Appeal (and then SCC) found there to be a violation of the unwritten constitutional principles

Absolutely agreed on that, save that I think the City could join with much more adept parties...a la the 'The Wise Old Men', and if at least one of them were in the Senate, or the House, they'd have a lever others wouldn't to expedite a case before the Superior of Ont or SCC. More on 'The Wise Old Men" later. The probability of this might be a good part of Justin's stepping back. And he'd be right, in reflection. If it became a Private Bill, and the wording was neutral, and carried the concerns not only of Toronto, but the Assoc of Cdn Munis as well (who Canada wide are behind Toronto) this would easily pass the House, and the Libs might even adopt it as theirs.

As to whether a parallel bill would/could be successful in Ontario is a good question. It would have to wait to get on a session, but there might be other ways of sabotaging Ford's rewritten/reintroduced bill.

Reading the decision, I thought he was actually anticipating this, and the otherwise odd comments about the freedoms predating the 1982 Charter seemed to be a door explicitly placed for this very purpose. Along with references to Section 3, which isn't subject to the notwithstanding clause.

Agreed. I've yet to have a chance to read the decision, only synopses, I'm dealing with a matter taking almost all my time right now. I believe there's more than just Section 3 cited that's immutable.

What I don't understand is technically the 25-ward election was in place for over a month. Did they not register on principle? Or were they so sure that the 47-ward was coming back?

I don't know about them, but if I were in their place I would have hedged my bets and registered under both. You can still disapprove of a change and CYA at the same time.

Yeahhh...I think they were being too clever and got caught. It seems the Clerk will find a way to grant more time. That in itself might be grounds for another case. In a number of ways...

Edit to Add: In a number of ways, including the Clerk adhering to the gist of Belobaba's ruling, and defying the Chief Electoral Officer and forcing a legal case in doing so. That case would necessitate delaying the election or having it declared void.

Two can play the the 'nuclear option' game. I'm looking for any reference on how that would/could play out. The Province would prevail in the long term, but the short term is the object at play here.

 

[PinkLucy]

Is your MPP a conservative?

Yes

 

[Jasmine18]

The 44 ward system was not representative of Toronto's population. It gave disproportionate weight to suburban wards. There were extensive consultations and subsequent challenges where the 47 ward system won out as the best option. I choose to trust the judement of the experts and judges we put in place to decide these things over the uninformed opinions of right-wing populists who's knee-jerk reaction to any adversity seems to be to slash and burn government at every chance they why
As for the strong mayor system, i would never support it unless there were even stronger measures in place that would prevent delusional idiots like the Ford brothers from inflicting their harmful ideas on us.

Then change the boundaries? You have not demonstrated why more councillors = better govt.

In the future Toronto grows to 4 million people, would we have 70 councillors?

I don't get the argument that more = better government.

 

[Miscreant]

Then change the boundaries? You have not demonstrated why more councillors = better govt.

In the future Toronto grows to 4 million people, would we have 70 councillors?

I don't get the argument that more = better government.

That's because you're artificially simplifying the argument. In fact, your objection targets the very simplification that Ford's government is guilty of in the opposite direction: fewer councilors = better government.

But to answer your question: as Toronto grows, yes, the structure of municipal government will have to adapt accordingly. In particular, through tested and democratic measures like consultation and study, we can make informed, consent-driven decisions about the structure of our government. And since the issues facing Toronto's government are more complicated than the strict number of councilors (contra Ford's contention), I would not be surprised if as Toronto grows the structure of municipal government grows by introducing more nested systems of representation: local councils, boards, etc.

But as for right now and the 47 ward/councilor model, since it was thoroughly tested and studied, I think it enjoys the benefit of the doubt over Ford's simplistic proposal for 'smaller' government--which, let's be frank, will no doubt lead to more administrators and thus more bloat and less democratic accountability.

You know, for the people.

 

[SunriseChampion]

I lived in Toronto under the 44 Councillor system - not anymore. I suppose those on the outside are more able to make an honest impartial assessment.

So you don't live in Toronto now?
So, you're like that guy in Sault Ste Marie. Poor form, buddy.

I don't even personally care how many councillors we have. There's no magic number and I hadn't given it much thought during the whole process of creating 47 wards and beyond.

The problem I have is that people who don't live here are not qualified to give a credible opinion on the matter.

Well, that and the fact that Ford, without sound reason, decided to be a petty puke and unilaterally meddle in our affairs to fulfill his vengeful heart's desire to piss people off and to lord it over them that he now had the power over the city that he was denied before. Also the fact that he's such a scum of a person that he'd do it during an election and that he'd invoke the notwithstanding clause when his actions were deemed unconstitutional by a court of law...the very courts whose sole purpose is to uphold the constitution and protect our rights and obligations from autocratic scum.

Doug Ford is an autocratic waste of skin like all autocrats before him, concurrently, and in the future. People like that aren't fit to lick my boots and their quislings even less so.

 

[ttk77]

Then change the boundaries? You have not demonstrated why more councillors = better govt.

In the future Toronto grows to 4 million people, would we have 70 councillors?

I don't get the argument that more = better government.

What Miscreant said.

The experts made their determination after detailed study and consultation and I trust those determination more than my uninformed opinion. It just so happens that they agree, so I haven't dug too much deeper. It follows logically though, that if you believe that being able to interact with your representative is important for the success of a democratic system (which I do), then a higher ratio of representatives to constituents leads to better representation. We can discuss what form that representation takes....higher numbers of councillors or a more deeply layered political system, but less representation means less opportunity for constituents to express their feelings and opinions to their elected representatives.

 

[Jasmine18]

That's because you're artificially simplifying the argument. In fact, your objection targets the very simplification that Ford's government is guilty of in the opposite direction: fewer councilors = better government.

But to answer your question: as Toronto grows, yes, the structure of municipal government will have to adapt accordingly. In particular, through tested and democratic measures like consultation and study, we can make informed, consent-driven decisions about the structure of our government. And since the issues facing Toronto's government are more complicated than the strict number of councilors (contra Ford's contention), I would not be surprised if as Toronto grows the structure of municipal government grows by introducing more nested systems of representation: local councils, boards, etc.

But as for right now and the 47 ward/councilor model, since it was thoroughly tested and studied, I think it enjoys the benefit of the doubt over Ford's simplistic proposal for 'smaller' government--which, let's be frank, will no doubt lead to more administrators and thus more bloat and less democratic accountability.

You know, for the people.

The issue is what is wrong with 44 with a redrawn map to benefit the downtown?

As i said I have yet to see any real evidence saying that a higher number of councillors = A better run city.

I am from Mississauga and Brampton and our cities have dramatically grown compared to Toronto but we have had the same number of councillors and no one here argues more would be better.

 

[Miscreant]

The issue is what is wrong with 44 with a redrawn map to benefit the downtown?

As i said I have yet to see any real evidence saying that a higher number of councillors = better run cities.

That's because you haven't done the needed reading.

https://www.toronto.ca/city-governm...t-the-toronto-ward-boundary-review-2014-2016/

Assuming you work full-time/have a life/etc., that should take about a week for an honest assessment. Let me know at that point if you still have any questions.

 

[Jasmine18]

That's because you haven't done the needed reading.

https://www.toronto.ca/city-governm...t-the-toronto-ward-boundary-review-2014-2016/

/QUOTE]

Pretty much says that having fewer residents per councillor = better representation but frankly I think its rather subjective if that equals to better govt based on one's own opinion on Toronto City Council itself.

Even so I think Ford is doing this out of Personal revenge than anything around any real substantive basis.

 

[Videodrome]

Yes

Our riding has been a bellwether for a long time, so I knew it would go PC.

 

[steveintoronto]

Ontario's present Lieutenant Governor is a very educated, accomplished and able woman. Bio here:
https://www.lgontario.ca/en/biography/

She's probably the most *academically* and business experienced person in the Chamber.

Here's the Province's blurb on powers:
https://www.lgontario.ca/en/constitutional-role#appointment-installation

Here's the Provincial Act:
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90l13

Here's the first paragraph from that Act:

Powers vested in Lieutenant Governor
1. In matters within the jurisdiction of the Legislature, all powers, authorities and functions that, in respect of like matters, were vested in or exercisable by the governors or lieutenant governors of the several provinces now forming part of Canada or any of the provinces, under commissions, instructions or otherwise, at or before the passing of the Constitution Act, 1867, are, so far as the Legislature has power thus to enact, vested in and exercisable by the Lieutenant Governor or Administrator for the time being of the Province of Ontario, in the name of Her Majesty or otherwise as the case requires, subject always to the Royal Prerogative as heretofore. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.13, s. 1.

Note: "subject always to the Royal Prerogative"

Here's the Royal Prerogative:

https://www.canadiancrown.com/uploads/3/8/4/1/3841927/the_royal_prerogative.pdf

Note the role "Administrator":
Refer to Powers vested in Lieutenant Governor above.

The Chief Justice of Ontario holds a standing appointment as Administrator of the Government. If the Chief Justice is not available, another judge from the courts of Ontario is temporarily appointed by the Governor General-in-Council to act as Administrator.

• Browse federal Orders-in-Council appointing the Administrator of the Government of Ontario

https://www.lgontario.ca/en/constitutional-role

The *protocol* for the L-G is to (in all due respect)(gist and simplified) 'Follow the counsel of the sitting gov't'

Ontario is in uncharted territory right now, and the L-G is a *very* educated and able person. It appears she has the power beyond what has been discussed prior by other posters to (as an example): 'Defer to the Courts on this matter before granting Royal Assent'. (My term, that's not a direct quote) It might also be 'Defer to the Administrator' (for legal counsel)

Far fetched? Perhaps, so is Ford's use of Section 30. The L-G *so it appears* would be well within her power to demand further legal clarification before signing. And perhaps even petition the Court directly for that clarification. As to what exact mechanism that would take, precedent or citing of procedure I'm still searching for.

I'd take this a step further: It's *incumbent* on the L-G to consult the highest court in the Province, and perhaps the Nation to get this right.

Take note: "Where there is no provision in the Constitution or in law, the Royal Prerogative still exists and is used to make law".

@Richard White may have missed the bullseye with his points on this matter, but he was on target.

I'll research this further later, but meantime any others who can search and comment most appreciated.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'd stop appealing to the LG or higher levels of government. At worst the offense if doing something poorly now that can be done better later. We don't want to exhaust all our hysteria powder in the first engagement.

 

[Miscreant]

Ontario's present Lieutenant Governor is a very educated, accomplished and able woman. Bio here:
https://www.lgontario.ca/en/biography/

She's probably the most *academically* and business experienced person in the Chamber.

Though there should be a mix--of those who are academically inclined, those successful in business, those successful in community organizing--it's people of this caliber that I want in government, whether I agree with their politics or not.

I just find it offensive that people like Doug Ford succeed when there are so many people so much more accomplished and honourable. The deeper irony, of course, is that do-it-yerself populism is entirely at odds with the fact that he's likely never had a single job interview in his life and was able to walk into Deco and carve out an upper-middle class lifestyle from day one.

 

[steveintoronto]

^ Quick note, must run: Ford might rue the day he appointed her. I suspect Ford's lessons in judicial oversight has only just started. Judge Belobaba might be far more 'typical' in his rulings and findings than many might suspect.

Ford has declared war on the Judiciary. He can't win it.