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Yes it would. Just because Bombardier is incompetent doesn`t mean Alstom is. Germany just last month put in it`s first order with Alstom and will begin receiving them for full service in late 2020 and have the entire fleet up and running by mid-2021. I`m sure Alstom could build some trains for lease just as early.

The track is there, the stations are there, the demand is there but unfortunately as with all things Metrolinx, the iniative and planning isn`t.,

To be fair, there are a few things left to work out around here. The Germans have been pursuing this for a while and may have already dealt with fire and building codes, crash standards, etc. The regulatory agencies here still have to digest all that. In Canada, that accountability is spread across three levels of government. It will take time. We can’t just translate to our official languages and hope that all the German standards will fit here.

As noted previously, the whole Ontario welcome to this technology was a Hail Mary ploy, to delay/ sidestep stringing wires. I cannot see a Ford caucus jumping to put its credibility on the line with a technology that is at such an early stage of deployment.

We can’t pin this one on ML. I hope at least the test program is maintained.

- Paul
 
To be fair, there are a few things left to work out around here. [...]
- Paul
I was just searching for the latest on this, can find nothing new pro or con in an engineering sense, but the convenient hysteria is spreading:
(Some of the claims of the 'Hydrail Neolutionaries' are astounding in their naïveté, which is why I'll leave the pic and its quip in the following) :
“Hydrail: Then There Were Fourteen”
Posted 12 July 2018 by Stan Thompson in Business

upload_2018-7-20_17-34-47.png


Germany has an extensive network of high-speed rail. Moving to hydrail would be clearer and greener

Mooresville – Transportation – Poland just became the 13th country to announce a hydrail project. They are investigating the potential to extract hydrogen from coal and use it to power freight railways.

Poland joins 12 other countries that have begun the transition from diesel and overhead electric train traction to hydrail—traction that carries the electric power onboard, stored as hydrogen and returned to electricity in fuel cells. This cuts about US$10 million per mile from construction expense and US$150,000 per mile per year from maintenance.

Hydrogen Powered Rail First Raised in Thunder Bay by Dalton McGuinty
It’s been a decade and a half since Canada’s Federal Government partnered with the American Bush Administration to develop the first hydrail mining locomotive and test it in Quebec. It’s been almost 11 years since Premier Dalton McGuinty and Bombardier proposed, prophetically, to introduce hydrail for Ontario’s GO trains.

About that time, if I remember correctly, the International Union of Railways in Paris and perhaps the British Railway Safety and Standards Board also asked Bombardier to build a proof-of-concept hydrail train to prompt the coming European transition which Alstom’s and Hydrogenics’ announcement finally sparked in 2014.

Hydrail is the New Standard
Today it’s clear that hydrail will become the standard for rail traction over the coming decade. Besides the 13 countries that are on the move (Austria, China, the Czech Republic, Germany, India, Japan, Latvia, the Netherlands, Poland, South Africa, the UK and the USA), five major train builders either have hydrail rolling-stock in production or have announced product and/or sales: Alstom (France), CRRC (China), ICF (India), JREast (Japan), Stadler (Switzerland) and Siemens (Germany).

The ascendency of political Conservatism may actually advance the speed of hydrail’s deployment in North America. Canada and Europe decry climate change denial by the US Government but they overlook three critical points: (1) that is was the Obama administration that pulled funding from hydrogen research that had been strongly supported by President George W. Bush. Before President Obama’s Transportation Secretary, Anthony Foxx, was appointed, he repeatedly refused offers to be briefed on hydrail and would not allow it to be considered for transit projects during his tenure in Washington. (2) The current Conservative administration has a designated point person for hydrogen and fuel cells advancement in the Department of Energy. Dr. Sunita Satyapal was the Opening Keynote Speaker at Ontario’s Hydrail Symposium last November. (3) The new Secretary of Transportation is not an ideologue but a pro with deep roots, having served as Deputy Secretary of Transportation from 1989 to 1991 under President George Herbert Walker Bush (“Bush 1”).

Of particular note, Chao’s recently appointed FRA Administrator, Ron Batory, is a life-long railway professional, having retired as President and CEO of the Conrail freight railroad to take his present position. Administrator Batory has appointed Chris Hess as DOT’s hydrail point person.

To the extent that assuring that the public gets top value for tax money expended remains a keystone of political conservatism, hydrail is a clear fit. The vast sums needed to raise bridges and tunnel clearances to expand 1880s external track electrification is a poor use of public funds—even without the risk that it might have to be scrapped before its amortization life ends because the state-of-the-art has moved on and the maintenance cost has become prohibitive.

In the past when I’ve written in support of Thunder Bay’s becoming a hydrail rolling-stock supplier for North America, I have felt a bit shy about meddling from South of the Border. But now I’ve got a real dog in the fight.

The State of North Carolina’s railway system—affiliated with Amtrak—wants to offer the first hydrail service in the USA. As with Germany’s Alstom Coradia ILints in Europe, once the new technology is seen there will be a rush to the silent, uncluttered, potentially carbon-free next generation of rail traction. In the USA there are something like 330,000 miles of track—of which less than 1% is electrified, or ever can be for obvious capital cost reasons.

Hydrail essentially electrifies the whole 330,000-mile network as fast as the new trains can be produced. How fast that might be is Thunder Bay’s business as well as Mooresville’s !

Stan Thompson

Mooresville NC’s Stan Thompson is a retired planner and futurist from what is now AT&T. With Bill Thunberg and Jason Hoyle, he initiated the annual International Hydrail Conferences.At Ryerson University in 2013, their “8th IHC”—organized by Ontario’s Robert Stasko—led to the collaboration between Hydrogenics and Alstom Transport which triggered the global turn to hydrail railways. Almost all hydrail trains today are powered by fuel cells made in Canada.
http://www.netnewsledger.com/2018/07/12/hydrail-then-there-were-fourteen/

If this is the level of PR for Hydrail, it really is sunk. Even a bench tech would roll his/her eyes with the gullibility of what this org presents.

Have they absolutely no understanding of what's involved in tearing Hydrogen from large molecules, and the energy costs in doing so, let alone the waste products?
 

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Yes it would. Just because Bombardier is incompetent doesn`t mean Alstom is. Germany just last month put in it`s first order with Alstom and will begin receiving them for full service in late 2020 and have the entire fleet up and running by mid-2021. I`m sure Alstom could build some trains for lease just as early.

I wouldn't count on it. Remeber the R160A fiasco in New York? Unfortunately, buy local laws prevent any other manufacturer from entering the Canadian market.
 
To be fair, there are a few things left to work out around here. The Germans have been pursuing this for a while and may have already dealt with fire and building codes, crash standards, etc. The regulatory agencies here still have to digest all that. In Canada, that accountability is spread across three levels of government. It will take time. We can’t just translate to our official languages and hope that all the German standards will fit here.

- Paul

I disagree. These are not some revolutionary designed cars. It`s only the power supply that is different. These trains are currently in use in Ottawa on the O-Train. These hydrogen trains are called iLint and are part of the standard Alstom Coradia Regional Train family. They have already been tested and proven successful in Ottawa so what makes Toronto so special?

These are very much run-of-the-mill regional trains that are used all over the planet INCLUDING Toronto on the UPX. That's like saying if Toronto decided any new subway cars were from anyone but Bombardier then they would have to go thru all the tests and government red tape. Hell, you could even say the same about a bus purchase. One reasons why so many of you dislike the SRT is that you claim it's proprietary...…but these trains aren't. They are trains 101 but now with an option of having hydrogen power as opposed to diesel or catenary.

Any new crash tests etc is just a delay tactic.
 
^I’m sure that 97% of the German engineering will map easily into North American standards, many of which are international anyways......but the point is - we don’t do things on faith. It will all have to be verified as a matter of due diligence. For one example, I’m sure that no one is going to allow a hydrail train under the Bush trainshed at Union until it’s assured that the trainshed won’t melt down in a fire. (having a devious side thought.... must not digress....)

The big issue is not the trains, it’s the power supply. Look at how many years have already gone by with the design of the Hydro 1 power feed amd substation siting for electrification.... complete with EA. Look at the lead time on high voltage switchgear, none of which has begun procurement yet. Now we change the plan....have to go back and assess how ML will deliver fuel to hydrail trainsets. Where is the fuel produced? what volume is required per day? How big an electrical feed is needed for that? Where is the fuel production site located? Can Hydro 1 supply that location? Will that mean adjusting the grid? Will there be windmills or solar cells on site? How do we transport fuel to the trains? What are the standards for transport? How much storage capacity is needed, and where? Will there be remote fuelling stations at layover yards? How does the neighbouring community feel about that? There’s an awful lot of due diligence in all of that, and a lot of design. Much more complicated than just calling up a vendor and ordering 100 trainsets. None of it having precedent or proven design.

Now imagine Doug Ford being told about the path forward on all that. Even elec trification is outside his comfort zone. I suspect we will be stalemated on any forward motion from diesels, for the next four years, anyways. Maybe by then, more of this will have been thought through, and maybe more will have been prototyped.

- Paul
 
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Perusing the hydrail promo literature, almost all of it is now based on (gist) "See who the latest to adopt it is". As if catenary is going to go away. Quite the contrary. Germany and France are both committed to erecting much more catenary, as are many nations, and to do that one better:
x846sweden.jpg.pagespeed.ic.oa-OqkzdGp.webp

Germany to build 10-km electric highway
1 Comment
German engineer Siemens has been commissioned by the German state of Hesse to build a 10km-long highway with electrified wires overhead that trucks can connect to at speed with a pantograph.

The line will supply electricity to hybrid trucks, which are able to operate twice as efficiently as they would when running on petrol or diesel, Siemens said, claiming that a 40-ton truck running for 100,000km on an eHighway would realise €20,000 in reduced fuel costs.

The system will be installed on the A5 federal autobahn between the Zeppelinheim interchange at Frankfurt Airport and the Darmstad interchange.

Roland Edel, chief technology officer with Seimens’ Mobility Division, said: “With the eHighway, we’ve created an economically viable solution for climate-neutral freight transport by road. Our technology is an already existing and feasible alternative to trucks operating with internal combustion engines.”

x846etruck.jpg.pagespeed.ic.pQQJP19J2i.webp

Siemens’ poster for its eHighway concept

Gerd Riegelhuth, head of transport of Hessen Mobil Construction, said the aim of the trial was to demonstrate the feasibility of integrating overhead contact systems with a public highway. A similar experiment has already been tested in Sweden, although this was a smaller scale experiment, involving 2.2km of road and two hybrid trucks.

Siemens says the key innovation is the “intelligent” pantograph, which allows the trucks to connect to the catenary system while travelling at 90km/h.

Siemens will be responsible for the planning and construction of the Hesse system. It is being built as part of a federal project known as Electrified Innovative Heavy Freight Transport on Autobahns.

Top image: A hybrid truck testing the system in Sweden (Siemens)

Further Reading:

http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/germany-build-10-km-electric-highway/
 
Ok so apparently according to an engineer involved in RER Ford has issued a stop work order on some or all RER related works I'm not sure exactly what because this is secondhand but still concerns me nonetheless.

You should get some more information because it sounds like hearsay at this point.
 
You should get some more information because it sounds like hearsay at this point.
I've been checking Twitter and can see nothing so far, not that I'm a Twitterite, but did check Oliver Moore and Ben Spurr. The allegation could well be correct, but the Devil's in the detail. Rumour has been abounding on a number of items.
 
Ok so apparently according to an engineer involved in RER Ford has issued a stop work order on some or all RER related works I'm not sure exactly what because this is secondhand but still concerns me nonetheless.

RER is the single most critical component of Toronto's transit expansion. Killing it would be of great detriment to Toronto's global competitiveness. I sincerely hope you're wrong about this.
 
RER is the single most critical component of Toronto's transit expansion. Killing it would be of great detriment to Toronto's global competitiveness. I sincerely hope you're wrong about this.
One would hope he's wrong, but I don't know why anyone would be surprised by this.

This is what post-Davis Conservatives do ... this is what they've done before, and this is what those of us who knew better warned about before the election. They are going to avoid large infrastructure spends, and increases to operating expenses.

They are instead going to look at how to decrease operating expenses. I'd assume we are looking at cutbacks on weekend and late evening services rather than more frequent service.
 
You should get some more information because it sounds like hearsay at this point.

Here's where that rumour was posted. It was posted in a Facebook group. Another person involved in the project says he hasn't heard anything.
 

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Interesting- like on what sort of things?
The Davenport Diamond Bridge is one. I repeat:
I've been checking Twitter and can see nothing so far, not that I'm a Twitterite, but did check Oliver Moore and Ben Spurr. The allegation could well be correct, but the Devil's in the detail. Rumour has been abounding on a number of items.
And I'd actually agree with the Davenport Diamond Bridge being reassessed. Not being cancelled, but being re-evaluated as necessary if other major projects can be done instead, like the Missing Link. A bridge would still be 'desirable', but nowhere near as necessary if it came down to co-ordinating east-west GO service on the Midtown v north-south on the Barrie Line.

I am assuming a degree of intelligent and rational decision making on the part of the CONfabulated however...a huge 'if'.

A fresh overview on something big that would actually save more than it costs and make everyone (well, almost) happier would be one of the first things I'd look at if I were one of the Grownups in Dougie's doghouse.
 
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I've been checking Twitter and can see nothing so far, not that I'm a Twitterite, but did check Oliver Moore and Ben Spurr.

It might be worth tossing them a RT/heads up just so that they can start digging into details (on whether there's something going on back of house).

I mostly say this because enthusiasts (like Steve Munro) are sometimes more intimately acquainted with the inner workings of things and can get the fastest news, much more so than journalists, who in turn know more than the general public.

If this leads anywhere, a big nasty Star article might actually do some good for once.
 

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