[gweed123]

Does the recent subway overcrowding make People's Promise more appealing?

I'm not sure changing who owns the subway makes much of a difference on the fact that there are too many people and not enough track. If anything, the Trudeau Government's funding for signal upgrades and station improvements, coupled with the Wynne Government's pledge to actually take the Relief Line seriously makes a heck of a lot more of a difference. The People's Guarantee didn't even commit full funding to the Relief Line (IIRC, it covered less than half of what the expected cost is).

 

[hw621]

I'm not sure changing who owns the subway makes much of a difference on the fact that there are too many people and not enough track. If anything, the Trudeau Government's funding for signal upgrades and station improvements, coupled with the Wynne Government's pledge to actually take the Relief Line seriously makes a heck of a lot more of a difference. The People's Guarantee didn't even commit full funding to the Relief Line (IIRC, it covered less than half of what the expected cost is).

But the TTC needs more regular, steady maintenance and upgrade funding, not the one-off, election candy type money.

 

[gweed123]

But the TTC needs more regular, steady maintenance and upgrade funding, not the one-off, election candy type money.

I remain skeptical on whether or not the Province would actually fund maintenance better than the City would, especially under a PC government. One scenario that I could see happening is the subway being handed over to Metrolinx to own, but the funding not going with it (see: downloads of the 1990s).

To be clear, I'm fine with a wholesale uploading of the TTC to Metrolinx, just as long as the funding or the ability to raise revenue to pay for it goes with it.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

To be clear, I'm fine with a wholesale uploading of the TTC to Metrolinx, just as long as the funding or the ability to raise revenue to pay for it goes with it.

I have great issues with it, so long as Metrolinx remains a provincial agency driven by provincial priorities. It flies against the principle of subsidiarity.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

I have great issues with it, so long as Metrolinx remains a provincial agency driven by provincial priorities. It flies against the principle of subsidiarity.

AoD

To me, the key is financial independence. As long as Queen's Park controls the purse strings, you're right, it will be fully driven by Provincial priorities. If Metrolinx gets an independent revenue source though (sales tax, a fixed percentage of the gas tax, etc), then a lot of those concerns are negated for me.

And as far as being subject to the whims of Provincial priorities, it's not like being subject to the whims of Municipal priorities is a whole lot better...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

To me, the key is financial independence. As long as Queen's Park controls the purse strings, you're right, it will be fully driven by Provincial priorities. If Metrolinx gets an independent revenue source though (sales tax, a fixed percentage of the gas tax, etc), then a lot of those concerns are negated for me.

And as far as being subject to the whims of Provincial priorities, it's not like being subject to the whims of Municipal priorities is a whole lot better...

I agree with the first point - but purse strings (and governance) is one thing the province loathe to give up. If we have a GTA regional government, I'd say upload now.

As to your second point - no, but at least we wouldn't be looking at someone pushing extension to Vaughan or whatever because they need to win the provincial election, and I'd rather be subjected to the whims of local vs. provincial on something this granular.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

I agree with the first point - but purse strings (and governance) is one thing the province loathe to give up. If we have a GTA regional government, I'd say upload now.

Agreed completely.

As to your second point - no, but at least we wouldn't be looking at someone pushing extension to Vaughan or whatever because they need to win the provincial election, and I'd rather be subjected to the whims of local vs. provincial on something this granular.

AoD

Pushing an underused subway extension into Vaughan to win an election vs pushing an underused subway extension into Scarborough to win an election. Potayto potahto. At least the Province was consistent on their desire though, which didn't lead to years of delays bickering and flip-flopping (the delays came from other reasons!).

Also, for every issue where the solution needs to be granular, there's an issue where the parties involved need to look beyond their little transit fiefdoms and arbitrary boundaries to find a solution.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Agreed completely.
Pushing an underused subway extension into Vaughan to win an election vs pushing an underused subway extension into Scarborough to win an election. Potayto potahto.

Also, for every issue where the solution needs to be granular, there's an issue where the parties involved need to look beyond their little transit fiefdoms and arbitrary boundaries to find a solution.

But of course, both of which is enabled by provincial involvement on the files - if the province didn't put their hands into it, I am not sure if anyone would even dare to suggest a 3B+, one stop extension entirely out of their own pocket.

You are totally right about the need to look beyond fiefdoms, but I am afraid what we have right now is one of the worst possible combinations - you have the province basically encouraging fiefdoms to further their own electoral interests.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

But of course, both of which is enabled by provincial involvement on the files - if the province didn't put their hands into it, I am not sure if anyone would even dare to suggest a 3B+, one stop extension entirely out of their own pocket.

You are totally right about the need to look beyond fiefdoms, but I am afraid what we have right now is one of the worst possible combinations.

AoD

Yes, the Scarborough Subway debate was a perfect storm of crappy timing and too many hands wanting to win elections. Even the Feds had a hand in it.

In general, I'd agree that there are too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to transit infrastructure. I guess the question comes down to who do we want the cook to be.

 

[narduch]

The Vaughan extension wasn't to win votes. Most people in car-heaven Vaughan probably don't even care.

The purpose was to raise property values for Sorbara and his developer friends.

It was a classic corrupt move by our governing Liberals, who most on this board want to continually keep in power because they make it look like they are transit champions.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The Vaughan extension wasn't to win votes. Most people in car-heaven Vaughan probably don't even care.

The purpose was to raise property values for Sorbara and his developer friends.

It was a classic corrupt move by our governing Liberals, who most on this board want to continually keep in power because they make it look like they are transit champions.

I wish there is a way to drag all the parties involved before an inquest on the state of transit in Toronto for the last quarter century.

On another note, it seems TTC was still a mess this morning.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes, the Scarborough Subway debate was a perfect storm of crappy timing and too many hands wanting to win elections. Even the Feds had a hand in it.

In general, I'd agree that there are too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to transit infrastructure. I guess the question comes down to who do we want the cook to be.

Of course, who could have forgotten that TTC garage announcement with RoFo and Joe Oliver??

AoD

 

[narduch]

I don't really follow Party financing too closely, but I'm willing to bet that Smart Centres are one of the Liberals favoured donors.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I don't really follow Party financing too closely, but I'm willing to bet that Smart Centres are one of the Liberals favoured donors.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the development industry donating to everyone either.

AoD

 

[innsertnamehere]

Development industry is consistently one of the largest fundraisers of political campaigns on both the municipal and provincial level. A lot of developers put money in all parties - they want to be friendly with whoever wins, and for them to have their voices heard.

Government regulation is so tightly tied to development that any form of influence and voice in politics could mean big dollars.