[TheTigerMaster]

And let's recall the origin of this tangent: an insistence that the transit system should have a fare structure that explicitly targets poverty alleviation

That’s not what I said. I said the fare structure shouldn’t be designed to aggravate poverty, not that it should be designed to relieve it. There’s a big difference between the two.

I don’t expect the TTC to be going out their way to reduce poverty, but I do expect them to not implement policy that we know will have a direct and significant negative impact on poverty.

An effective transit system will alleviate poverty by improving connectivity and mobility

Connectivity doesn’t count for much when you can’t afford to use it in the first place.

And let’s not forget that your solution to the affordability problem seems to be some kind of tax credit, fare reduction, or beurocracy of similar nature. With several hundreds of thousands of lower income transit users in the city, this beurocracy can get really expensive really quickly. How many millions of dollars do you suppose we should be paying for this annually? This is money that could be invested in tangible improvements to transit

 

[nfitz]

This is old news but, according to Ben Spurr the Conservatives intend on keeping the whole of RER with electrification etc.

That's what Patrick Brown's staff said to Ben Spurr before Patrick Brown resigned under the shadow of rape. However, that is not what the actual platform says, which explicitly neither mentions electrification nor RER, and only mentions 2-way all-day service, which is mostly already constructed.

So how does it have any meaning?

Especially when at least one candidate is campaigning against what is explicitly spelled out in the platform

 

[W. K. Lis]

From link on
Ontario PC leadership candidates sign CTF ‘No Carbon Tax’ pledge

Looks like they all prefer to spend less money on transit by this action.

 

[DSC]

From link on
Ontario PC leadership candidates sign CTF ‘No Carbon Tax’ pledge

Looks like they all prefer to spend less money on transit by this action.

Yes, less for EVERYTHING. $4bn is a LOT of money and the money raised by the carbon tax was to fund all their other promises. Even Preston Manning has told them to fix it and not to reject it.

 

[nfitz]

Apparently it was from Senior PC party people not those directly linked to Brown.

The president and campaign manager have quit since then.

I was pretty iffy on it believing it before, given they weren't prepared to put that very expensive one in writing, but instead listed Liberal programs, that cost very little to complete (perhaps cost less capital, given the difficult of getting out of contract).

But we can't currently rely on even what's written in the platform, with it being under attack from leadership candidates.

While I don't expect the Tories to completely fill in the Eglinton subway again, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to shorten the project, cancel the other LRT projects, including Hamilton, Hurontario, Finch West, Sheppard East, delay the DRL and Yonge extension, cancel the Danforth extension (or simply delay it forever), and instead fund minor upgrades to the SRT with new rolling stock, and gut a lot of GO service

 

[W. K. Lis]

When Harris was in charge, he had a rookie MPP, Al Palladini, who owned a car dealership, as Minister of Transportation. We saw the bad things that came out of that.

I shudder to think which auto-addicted MPP would be in charge of Transportation with the PC's in charge.

 

[muller877]

When Harris was in charge, he had a rookie MPP, Al Palladini, who owned a car dealership, as Minister of Transportation. We saw the bad things that came out of that.

I shudder to think which auto-addicted MPP would be in charge of Transportation with the PC's in charge.

Versus....a "care coordinator"/nurse as our current Minister? Not very strong credentials to become a Transportation Minister. The PC's would likely give Denzil Minnan-Wong the nod. You may not 100% agree with some of his policies but he does know transit.

Hmmm...a care coordinator vs someone on the Board of the TTC. I wonder who has more experience

Everyone has doomsday predictions if the PC's are elected. But how many promises that the Lib's have given would actually be delivered? They do have a great track record of over-promising and under-delivering. Or "deferring" and hoping they can blame someone else.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Everyone has doomsday predictions if the PC's are elected. But how many promises that the Lib's have given would actually be delivered? They do have a great track record of over-promising and under-delivering. Or "deferring" and hoping they can blame someone else.

The Libs have a pretty terrible track record. However, what they’ve delivered is more than what the PCs are promising in the first place.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Versus....a "care coordinator"/nurse as our current Minister? Not very strong credentials to become a Transportation Minister. The PC's would likely give Denzil Minnan-Wong the nod. You may not 100% agree with some of his policies but he does know transit.

Hmmm...a care coordinator vs someone on the Board of the TTC. I wonder who has more experience

Everyone has doomsday predictions if the PC's are elected. But how many promises that the Lib's have given would actually be delivered? They do have a great track record of over-promising and under-delivering. Or "deferring" and hoping they can blame someone else.

Read this article on Denzil Minnan-Wong, at this link:

Ten things Denzil Minnan-Wong can’t live without

Denzil's #1:

My car

I’m a car guy. I used to have a Porsche 928 S4 and a BMW 328. Those days are gone (I’m a family man now), but I love driving alone in my Subaru Forester. I come into the city from North York every morning and watch the sun glint off the towers.

No, I do not want Denzil as Transportation Minister. I don't like him as a TTC Board Commissioner. The TTC board should have people who actually use the TTC on a regular basis, not for a photo-op.

 

[kEiThZ]

That’s not what I said. I said the fare structure shouldn’t be designed to aggravate poverty, not that it should be designed to relieve it. There’s a big difference between the two.

Two sides of the same coin. Define for me how you would argue whether a fare change scheme does or does not "aggravate poverty"?

Connectivity doesn’t count for much when you can’t afford to use it in the first place.

We can have a transit system that requires very little capital investment if all we had were buses. Fares could be cheaper too. I doubt people would be happy with the result.

There's a reason people are willing to pay much higher fares, relative to income, in other parts of the world. And that's because they get a transit system that is truly a replacement for the car. That should be the goal here. Not keeping fares low for some amorphous goal of not designing to "aggravate poverty".

Ask anybody (including the poor) in say London or Paris or Munich or Tokyo, if they'd love our fares, if they came with our transit system.

I think it's wholly reasonable to ask people who use the transit system more, to pay more. If you're travelling further on the transit system, why should you not pay more? Heck, it would actually provide some funds for all the suburban subway and LRT extensions that suburban residents want. The only reason I've argued for flat fare on buses and streetcars and LRT, is because there's no practical way of doing tap on/tap off. For the subway? We should absolutely do this.

And only the province is placed to do this. Because, let's face it, you will never see a municipal politician running on something like this. Heck, I find it perverse that downtown councillors don't bring this up, when their residents would benefit a ton from the introduction of zone or fare by distance schemes.

And let’s not forget that your solution to the affordability problem seems to be some kind of tax credit, fare reduction, or beurocracy of similar nature.

I never suggested a tax cut. Where did you get that?

I suggested either discounted pass (implemented on Presto) or simply discounted fares (like we have for seniors and students), or simply higher welfare payments to help the poor. If a discounted pass on Metro is "bureaucracy" than we should give up talking about any further transit discussion. Implementing a fare policy in software should be basic for a transit system.

 

[kEiThZ]

Everyone has doomsday predictions if the PC's are elected. But how many promises that the Lib's have given would actually be delivered? They do have a great track record of over-promising and under-delivering. Or "deferring" and hoping they can blame someone else.

Discussing broad politics here is rather pointless. Most the folks here are partisan ideologues who will never vote conservative even once in their lives. And that's not a condemnation. That's a recognition of their worldview. That, however, is not the general public. So best to discuss what the outcome and impact will be.

Last time around the gap on transit was huge. And many projects were in a fairly critical stage, as they were just starting up: Eglinton, Ottawa, Waterloo. Now? I don't feel the same threat. Traffic and transit are huge suburban issues as well. The foundation for so many projects have been laid. And there's a real chance for lots of ribbon cuttings if they push on several of these projects. It's why the PCs are offering more on transit that they did the last time. The gap is is there. But it's smaller. And I do think the PCs will deliver on their transit promises. Even if they are promising less.

It'll be interesting to see where the anti-incumbent mood goes in the province. Personally, for me, if Christine Elliott wins the PC leadership, she'll have my vote. Will be a change from voting Liberal the last time. I think the Liberals need a term on the Opposition benches to recharge. I honestly think that even they are surprised at how long they've been in power. If it's Ford though, I'll stick with the lizard I know.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It's worth mentioning the Ford wild card as, via the Carbon Tax, he's already blowing up the platform they (apparently) carefully crafted

If history is any guide, Doug will be all about subways. What that actually means, for York Region, Toronto (or, knowing Doug, any deluded town with subterranean dreams) remains to be seen. Either way, I think the likelihood of Patrick Brown's platform remaining intact under Ford is far less probably than under Elliott or Mulroney. (That said, it's also true the Fords have a way of creating a real race to the bottom as they gain traction so what's on paper now could be meaningless by the time a new leader is picked either way).

 

[kEiThZ]

No, I do not want Denzil as Transportation Minister. I don't like him as a TTC Board Commissioner.

How many of those councillors actually use transit as often as your average commuter? I have my doubts. I don't think it's just Wong that's problematic here.

I would love for the lot of them to take the TTC from Malvern to Union, back and forth after work, for just one week.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's worth mentioning the Ford wild card as, via the Carbon Tax, he's already blowing up the platform they (apparently) carefully crafted

If history is any guide, Doug will be all about subways. What that actually means, for York Region, Toronto (or, knowing Doug, any deluded town with subterranean dreams) remains to be seen. Either way, I think the likelihood of Patrick Brown's platform remaining intact under Ford is far less probably than under Elliott or Mulroney. (That said, it's also true the Fords have a way of creating a real race to the bottom as they gain traction so what's on paper now could be meaningless by the time a new leader is picked either way).

Time is on our side here. There is no time for a long leadership campaign. It has to be quick. And decisive. By that I mean, for the PCs to even have a shot, everyone has to line up behind the new leader as soon as he/she is proclaimed. That leaves little room for the typical Ford'esque bull in a china shop of policy run.

He either wins and tears up the platform. Or the others win and tinker a bit with the platform and run to the polls.

 

[nfitz]

Discussing broad politics here is rather pointless. Most the folks here are partisan ideologues who will never vote conservative even once in their lives. And that's not a condemnation. That's a recognition of their worldview.

conservative, or Conservative.

Only a fool votes on a partisan basis. At some point, a party is just so gormless, that no one should vote for them.

The Liberals under Ignatief. The NDP with it's current missing-in-action leaders, and lack of direction.

Tories might be doing that provincially currently ...

There's always other options. Green. A no hope protest party (and who knows, I did that once, and ended up voting for the new MNA! I guess I wasn't the only one who had the same thought).

If one is going to vote in favour of Transit - there's really only one possible choice, given the other two parties seem to be jumping the shark big time.