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These guys should be shipped to Guantanamo and worked over.

AoD

So the guards/staff of an illegal facility, breaching international law and norms, holding prisoners acquired by unlawful means, and having generally been denied legal rights and trials, should work over people who are similar in disposition?

I suppose. I certainly have no sympathy for the Russian mercenaries; but I don't view the people running Guantanamo as much better.
 
So the guards/staff of an illegal facility, breaching international law and norms, holding prisoners acquired by unlawful means, and having generally been denied legal rights and trials, should work over people who are similar in disposition?

I suppose. I certainly have no sympathy for the Russian mercenaries; but I don't view the people running Guantanamo as much better.

I don't accept laws and norms when dealing with those who doesn't respect it. Don't want "rules based order"? Well, you get to experience non-rules based order then. Quid pro quo. In some respect they are worse than ISIS/Al Qaeda - since they are literally employed by a state as a way to circumvent the rules.

AoD
 
I don't accept laws and norms when dealing with those who doesn't respect it. Don't want "rules based order"? Well, you get to experience non-rules based order then. Quid pro quo. In some respect they are worse than ISIS/Al Qaeda - since they are literally employed by a state as a way to circumvent the rules.

AoD
That's just pure revenge. I don't like, or support, Wagner in any form. But what you are suggesting simply drags us down to their level.
 
Nope, I am merely speaking a language they would know best - i.e. power and consequence.

AoD

What language will the widows and orphans you leave behind speak?

The problem w/perpetual escalation is .........well........societies and families have memories.

That's not pro-appeasement or letting any mercenary off the hook; but one wants to be very careful that in resolving one conflict you don't sew the seeds of the next.
 
What language will the widows and orphans you leave behind speak?

The problem w/perpetual escalation is .........well........societies and families have memories.

That's not pro-appeasement or letting any mercenary off the hook; but one wants to be very careful that in resolving one conflict you don't sew the seeds of the next.

You aren't going to get out of this one by treating them nicely - their leadership has been thinking about revenge (for losing the Cold War) even though the victor had been, by all accounts magnanimous.

AoD
 
End of the day, it's up to Ukraine what to do with the Wagnerites. And by all accounts they are treating them like any other POW.

WRT Gitmo, I'm torn. Breaking international norms while preaching about them massively erodes Western (and particularly American) credibility. But just look at the impact those who were released had. How's all those releases negotiated by the Trump administration working out for the people of Afghanistan? Particularly for their women, LGBTQ, and ethnic minorities. Pretty easy for a Canadian to sit on their couch in Toronto and preach about the rights of Gitmo inmates when there is zero chance they'll get a visit from said inmates accompanied by a Haqqani hit squad. It's a whole different discussion, but most people have no idea who the Haqqanis are and what they are up to. And what the Gitmo releases did for them. This one comes to mind:


Given the little expatriate network the Haqqanis are setting up, it's sadly almost inevitable we'll start seeing Islamist attacks in the West again. Wonder if people will still see the Gitmo releases are a good idea when that happens.
 
End of the day, it's up to Ukraine what to do with the Wagnerites. And by all accounts they are treating them like any other POW.

WRT Gitmo, I'm torn. Breaking international norms while preaching about them massively erodes Western (and particularly American) credibility. But just look at the impact those who were released had. How's all those releases negotiated by the Trump administration working out for the people of Afghanistan? Particularly for their women, LGBTQ, and ethnic minorities. Pretty easy for a Canadian to sit on their couch in Toronto and preach about the rights of Gitmo inmates when there is zero chance they'll get a visit from said inmates accompanied by a Haqqani hit squad. It's a whole different discussion, but most people have no idea who the Haqqanis are and what they are up to. And what the Gitmo releases did for them. This one comes to mind:


Given the little expatriate network the Haqqanis are setting up, it's sadly almost inevitable we'll start seeing Islamist attacks in the West again. Wonder if people will still see the Gitmo releases are a good idea when that happens.

The problem is not the legitimate arrest of foreign combatants in a war; or terrorists etc.

The problem is the failure to give them a fair, open, trial where the evidence against them is read in open court and a court of valid jurisdiction registers (or not) a conviction on charges allowing their on-going detention.

***

As soon as one says, we can arrest whomever we please, in whatever jurisdiction we wish, within or outside international legal norms, and hold said persons without trial, there is no international order left to protect.
 
The problem is the failure to give them a fair, open, trial where the evidence against them is read in open court and a court of valid jurisdiction registers (or not) a conviction on charges allowing their on-going detention.

I'm often astounded at the sheer naivete in statements like this. Aside from the fact that in most military operations, such captures are often the result of intelligence , which nobody wants to disclose in court, what's your plan for subpoenaing evidence and witnesses from Al Qaeda and the Taliban? Keep in mind that the burden of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt". So you need a far higher preponderance of evidence to achieve that.

On topic, the Ukrainians don't have this issue because the incidents happened on their land. They have witnesses. They don't need to burn sources for a conviction. It was very different in Afghanistan.

As soon as one says, we can arrest whomever we please, in whatever jurisdiction we wish, within or outside international legal norms, and hold said persons without trial, there is no international order left to protect.

Cause authoritarian regimes everywhere always seek out and follow best practices on human rights?

If you want to talk about international order, let's talk about how a P5 member is invading its neighbour with no substantial consequences from international organizations. Turns out this supposed international order is really only about what we can enforce. American HIMARS are doing more for Ukraine than the UN ever did or will.
 
I'm often astounded at the sheer naivete in statements like this.

There is no naivete; kindly refrain from your personal insults and characterizations made without evidence.

Aside from the fact that in most military operations, such captures are often the result of intelligence , which nobody wants to disclose in court, what's your plan for subpoenaing evidence and witnesses from Al Qaeda and the Taliban? Keep in mind that the burden of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt". So you need a far higher preponderance of evidence to achieve that.

Right, imagine the idea that we don't imprison people without actual evidence? Evidence we can prove before others, not merely claim to have.

That's exactly why we have constitutional rights, and yes, they apply to those we most despise, in the least convenient circumstances.

This is exactly why protections are created, they are easy to afford those we want to like; or where evidence is already public and either thoroughly damning or exculpatory.

The principle being upheld is clear; better that 10 guilty men should go free, than one innocent man be jailed or executed.

That principle is known as Blackstone's Ratio, and has been a cornerstone of Anglo-Saxon law since the 1760s:


Benjamin Franklin went further:

Benjamin Franklin stated it as: "it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer

Such a principle is not for when it is convenient or easy; but for when it is challenging and unpopular.

Cause authoritarian regimes everywhere always seek out and follow best practices on human rights?

No. One upholds one's principles because there is no reason to live if you don't. Hypocrisy is among the very worst sins.

The defense for violating one's own principles can only be necessity (as is the case with justifiable homicide based on self-defense or defense of a third party)

Even then, one must prove that a homicide was justifiable, not merely allege it and then claim you can't call a witness because its inconvenient or they wont' cooperate.

If you want to talk about international order, let's talk about how a P5 member is invading its neighbour with no substantial consequences from international organizations. Turns out this supposed international order is really only about what we can enforce.

Now that has always been true. Not right, but true.

In the same way that the United States refuses to sign on to the International Criminal Court, amongst many other treaties (though has few qualms about subjecting others to it).

But by no means is this unique to the United States; a host of countries regularly violate accepted international law and norms and do so with relative impunity because no one is willing or able to take action.

It has been ever thus. Its not ok; and we should strive to change that over time.

That China invaded Tibet or commits gross abuses of its Uyghur population, largely free from consequence is no reason to behave likewise.

Its a compelling reason to affect change such that this type of thing happens less often, and hopefully, one day, not at all.
 
There is no naivete; kindly refrain from your personal insults and characterizations made without evidence.

You really shouldn't be on a forum if you're this sensitive.

Right, imagine the idea that we don't imprison people without actual evidence? Evidence we can prove before others, not merely claim to have.

Like I said earlier, it's easy to say from your couch in Toronto, when there's no chance of them coming in and gunning you or your family after release. You should ask some Afghans how they feel about this.

That's exactly why we have constitutional rights,

Our constitution doesn't apply to other countries.

Benjamin Franklin stated it as: "it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer

Benjamin Franklin wasn't dealing with Islamofascists trying to run suicide bomber operations in multiple countries.

Now that has always been true. Not right, but true.

Indeed, and this is, what I suspect chaps a lot of those on the left to no end. For all the international institutions in the world, sadly, basic rights and sovereignty are still only guaranteed by force and a willingness to exercise it. Multilateralism works for cultural exchanges and talking about climate change. It's been an utter failure at securing sovereignty and human rights as we've seen time and again.

It has been ever thus. Its not ok; and we should strive to change that over time.

Good luck with that.
 
These discussions routinely seem to view detention (Gitmo or otherwise) as punitive, which is where Franklin's view on wrongful imprisonment would apply. That's not why most of the detainees in Gitmo were there. They were detained as a preventive measure. So the question to those who argue they should have been released, is how many lives (mostly Afghan) are you willing to risk to uphold the absolute western standard of due process for combat detainees? It pretty easy, sitting in Leaside to argue that the standard should be the same as a normal accused in the West. If you ever chat with an Afghan, they'll tell you that's some pretty imperialistic takes to let known killers loose in their country so that Westerners can feel good about themselves. The world ain't black and white, much as people wish it were.

I personally wish the US returned every detainee to their country of origin to stand trial. But there were quite a few countries, only more than happy, to let the US do their dirty work. To that end, I don't fault the US for holding on to them.
 
You really shouldn't be on a forum if you're this sensitive.

:rolleyes:

Like I said earlier, it's easy to say from your couch in Toronto, when there's no chance of them coming in and gunning you or your family after release. You should ask some Afghans how they feel about this.

Afghans are free to apply their laws, as they see fit, on their soil.

Our constitution doesn't apply to other countries.

No, but it does apply to any person from any country who interacts with our legal system or whom we seek to prosecute, except by way of turning them over to the ICC.

Non-citizens have the same judicial rights in Canada, as citizens.

* in the context of a criminal law proceeding.

* this is not the case in respect of an immigration/deportation proceeding in which some rights do exist, but these are lesser and different from those enjoyed by citizens, understandably, I think.

* likewise, many labour and mobility rights do not extend to foreign workers in Canada; this is arguably more contentious and certainly unfair in some respects.

Indeed, and this is, what I suspect chaps a lot of those on the left to no end. For all the international institutions in the world, sadly, basic rights and sovereignty are still only guaranteed by force and a willingness to exercise it. Multilateralism works for cultural exchanges and talking about climate change. It's been an utter failure at securing sovereignty and human rights as we've seen time and again.

I think this aggravates people across the political spectrum who believe the world needs to move beyond the nation-state over time.

As humans move out into space in the decades ahead, we need to have an over-arching government and key legal freedoms and rights for all, and move away from petty nationalism.

To be clear, obviously we aren't there, nor are we close, we won't be there in 10 or 20 years either, or at least I'd be shocked if we were. But that's still the direction we need to head over time, its a multi-generational project.

Good luck with that.

No doubt good luck and a lot of hard work are required to make change; but has it not ever been thus?

In the 17th Century, women's rights were all but non-existent in 'the west' (and much of the rest of the world); racism was rampant, the slave trade legal, and written constitution's and their rights barely extant.

But ambitious, and optimistic people sought to change that, some over decades, some over centuries, and the world is better for it.

One must continue to campaign for a better world; or one will never find it.
 
I agree with most of the thread, other than to say I think there is most certainly an outcome between no response and MAD when it comes to Russia using nukes.

As one of the threads you shared earlier pointed out, Putin could try and spin surviving a conventional attack from the west as a win. He may not and then it could escalate to MAD, but I certainly hope that's not the case and think it's a highly unlikely scenario.

I wholeheartedly agree with his assessment that we must respond to the Russian threat and not worry about causing a hysteria though. Some people are going to freak out about the idea that nukes could be used no matter what, and others will dismiss it no matter what. Like it or not the feelings of laymen simply cannot enter the calculus when so much is in on the line.

Even if Putin is bluffing, such loose talk about nuclear weapons by such a powerful state is unacceptable and insanely destabilizing and must be treated as such.
 

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