doady
Senior Member
Operating cost recovery from fares
Toronto 74%
New York City 55%
Montreal 57%
Chicago 44%
Philadelphia 59%
Toronto 74%
New York City 55%
Montreal 57%
Chicago 44%
Philadelphia 59%
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- Thread starter Dilla
- Start date
S
Swamp Thing
Guest
Depends on who you outsource to.
(Though I'll grant it's hard to imagine something worse than what we have.)
Dilla
Senior Member
So, we should stop aiming for 100%?
Northern Light
Superstar
Collectors
While I would not want to see subway stations w/o at least one person (staff) available for supervision/security/assistance etc....
I do think its silly to have them in the business of selling/taking fares, irrespective of what wage they make.
Morever, we don't need as many as 7-10 of them at busy stations.
If we made a flat fare, regardless of age, and put in automatic gates that take tokens or passes or transfers (with bar code/timestamp etc.) only; and had WORKING fare machines (2 minimum) per entrance which could take cash, credit or debit in exchange for tokens or passes, we could really streamline the staffing.
As others have pointed out, the remaining staff would be customer service/security focused and would not handle money or fares whatever.
The main goal would be fewer staff; as opposed to drastic pay cuts.
Though, a more modest wage, for unilingual, untrained staff would seem in order, say $16.00 p/h (I'm not ever going to advocate for giving someone an unsustainably low wage).
However, I have no trouble paying an extra $5.00 p/h per language of fluency; and $1.50 p/h extra for basic first aid training. So a bilingual agent could earn $22.50 p/h; while a trilingual agent would be $27.50 p/h.
But they should also be subject to 'mystery shopping' scores. Where customers agree to record their observations in exchange for a discount/free pass etc.
If you are caught being too rude, too many times; etc. Out you go.
If you can't give directions too many times, same deal.
****
This reminds me; I was boarding the subway last night; had no trouble with the collector, bought tokens....
The person after me, speaking with an accent, but understandable, appeared to be a tourist with the simple question, "Where are the toilets"?
He asked politely.
The collector was somewhat gruff; "Not Here", " No toilets here"; didn't offer any helpful directions on where you might find them. While not egregious, it didn't strike me as the nicest way to treat a tourist (or resident)
While I would not want to see subway stations w/o at least one person (staff) available for supervision/security/assistance etc....
I do think its silly to have them in the business of selling/taking fares, irrespective of what wage they make.
Morever, we don't need as many as 7-10 of them at busy stations.
If we made a flat fare, regardless of age, and put in automatic gates that take tokens or passes or transfers (with bar code/timestamp etc.) only; and had WORKING fare machines (2 minimum) per entrance which could take cash, credit or debit in exchange for tokens or passes, we could really streamline the staffing.
As others have pointed out, the remaining staff would be customer service/security focused and would not handle money or fares whatever.
The main goal would be fewer staff; as opposed to drastic pay cuts.
Though, a more modest wage, for unilingual, untrained staff would seem in order, say $16.00 p/h (I'm not ever going to advocate for giving someone an unsustainably low wage).
However, I have no trouble paying an extra $5.00 p/h per language of fluency; and $1.50 p/h extra for basic first aid training. So a bilingual agent could earn $22.50 p/h; while a trilingual agent would be $27.50 p/h.
But they should also be subject to 'mystery shopping' scores. Where customers agree to record their observations in exchange for a discount/free pass etc.
If you are caught being too rude, too many times; etc. Out you go.
If you can't give directions too many times, same deal.
****
This reminds me; I was boarding the subway last night; had no trouble with the collector, bought tokens....
The person after me, speaking with an accent, but understandable, appeared to be a tourist with the simple question, "Where are the toilets"?
He asked politely.
The collector was somewhat gruff; "Not Here", " No toilets here"; didn't offer any helpful directions on where you might find them. While not egregious, it didn't strike me as the nicest way to treat a tourist (or resident)
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Or we could keep the fare system, but only sell discounted fares at certain locations. I could also feasibly see just putting a barcode on student cards that they could wave at a scanner on a fare machine to get their student discount. Child and Senior tickets could still be given out at busier stations which require fare staff. Otherwise, I agree.
I could definitely agree with this. $16.00/hour for a job that requires a 5th grade education sounds rather reasonable, and I like the idea of doing things like, adding $5.00/hour per extra language and $1.50 for first aid. It would manage some of these very high wages that these easy jobs are giving, while rewarding usefulness. Hmm, I'd be able to rake in almost $40 an hour!Northern Light said:
Northern Light
Superstar
Lol
Maybe I was a bit generous for the add-ons; and their should be cap (maximum pay, of course)...
But on the low-end, I'm serious.
I mean the minimum wage in Australia (in Cdn dollars) works out to roughly $14.00 p/h (its actually a weekly guarantee); the Irish Minimum Wage translates to about $16.00 p/h
In essence, its a living wage thing.
If you need someone to do 40 hours of anything, that you apparently can't or won't get a machine to do; I don't care if its watching paint dry, they should be able to afford a modest place to live, 3 decent meals a day etc.
We could needle at what the number is in Toronto.
My suspicion would be somewhere between $14.00-$16.00 p/h.
It all depends on what you put in a 'basic' standard of living of course.
Regardless, unilingual and often ornery staff are currently overpaid at $27.00 p/h; on that we can agree!
Maybe I was a bit generous for the add-ons; and their should be cap (maximum pay, of course)...
But on the low-end, I'm serious.
I mean the minimum wage in Australia (in Cdn dollars) works out to roughly $14.00 p/h (its actually a weekly guarantee); the Irish Minimum Wage translates to about $16.00 p/h
In essence, its a living wage thing.
If you need someone to do 40 hours of anything, that you apparently can't or won't get a machine to do; I don't care if its watching paint dry, they should be able to afford a modest place to live, 3 decent meals a day etc.
We could needle at what the number is in Toronto.
My suspicion would be somewhere between $14.00-$16.00 p/h.
It all depends on what you put in a 'basic' standard of living of course.
Regardless, unilingual and often ornery staff are currently overpaid at $27.00 p/h; on that we can agree!
doady
Senior Member
Which cities have 100%?
Dilla
Senior Member
Quick note, my parents are both from, and $16 may sound like a living wage, but the cost of living in Ireland is barely comparable to Canada's. Once that was factored in, it wouldn't be nearly as generous as it looks on paper.
Dilla
Senior Member
None. I was saying that we can still improve that number, there's a lot of fat to trim in the TTC.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Aww, well that $40 per hour does seem a bit generous. Now I'm wondering why I learned all those languages in the first place
I agree with you though that in the modern age, we should be paying everyone enough so that they can live relatively comfortably. Since we can get machines, computers and robots to do a lot of stuff, we have more money to spend on human beings. $14-16/hours sounds like a good living wage. If you want more, either look for a better job or start working a second job at McDonalds.
I do hope that we all agree that $27/hour for a ticket collector is overkill. It would make the most sense to have a private company take care of all the TTC's personnel. Once you lower unnecessary wages and start mechanizing the system (replace extra fare guys with ticket machines, driverless trains, etc.) the TTC's cost recovery should soar. Who knows, it might even be able to function independently from the government, especially with more subway routes and LRTs in place.
I agree with you though that in the modern age, we should be paying everyone enough so that they can live relatively comfortably. Since we can get machines, computers and robots to do a lot of stuff, we have more money to spend on human beings. $14-16/hours sounds like a good living wage. If you want more, either look for a better job or start working a second job at McDonalds.
I do hope that we all agree that $27/hour for a ticket collector is overkill. It would make the most sense to have a private company take care of all the TTC's personnel. Once you lower unnecessary wages and start mechanizing the system (replace extra fare guys with ticket machines, driverless trains, etc.) the TTC's cost recovery should soar. Who knows, it might even be able to function independently from the government, especially with more subway routes and LRTs in place.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I wouldn't like to see TTC or other city employees' wages slashed. Sure, six figures for a collector is excessive (largely due to very generous overtime rates) but Miller has a point when he says that a city employee shouldn't have to rely on the city's social services. On the other hand, I think we have a reasonable expectation of good service from these people who are being generously compensated with our taxes. I have encountered fantastic people working for the City and the TTC, but too often I have encountered employees who are not merely surly but actually abusive or who don't actually do their jobs (i.e. collectors who don't look up from their book to see if you actually paid a fare or who refuse to provide basic directions). An employee who does not perform their job adequately is in breach of their contract and should be able to be disciplined or terminated. We also shouldn't keep employees who are clearly unnecessary. Trains that drive themselves do not need drivers. Vending machine technology has been available for decades. They even take credit cards! Change the collector to a full-time custodian whose job is to make sure that the station is well-kept and presentable. More flexible work rules and the ability to discipline employees who don't do their jobs or who are abusive to their customers are what I would push for in any negotiation, way ahead of wage and benefit cuts.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
The problem with that is it just increases unemployment. All things being equal, productivity is inversely related to demand for labor (if you make more stuff in a given period of time, you will need less time to reach a static demand level). As perverse as it sounds, "productivity" has seriously diminished the share of society employed in manufacturing and agriculture. Normally, that is a good thing. The rub comes when you get firms trying to be more productive than is necessary or practical. Case in point, the TTC. It spends so much money trying to make a few more workers only minutely more productive when it could simply hire people at minimum wage. Put another way, if the marginal gains arising from greater productivity are less than their marginal cost it isn't a good idea to proceed.
From a social welfare point of view, these productivity gains aren't even very beneficial. Evidence tends to show that "living wage" firms (i.e. government) end up employing whiter and older workers compared to equivalent jobs elsewhere as students and immigrants are priced out of the market. You can see it by comparing the demographic of TTC fare collectors versus the typical cashier at a Shopper's Drug Mart or Gap. Private garbage collectors also employ more minorities and younger people than public collectors. Government transfers like low income tax credits and guaranteed incomes are more efficient means of ensuring minimum living standards are meet and wouldn't discriminate.
cdr108
Senior Member
He was probably using the OT to steal more ... another 8 hours to scam more fares.
As part of the convinction, TTC should file a lawsuit to recover the OT paid as he 'benefitted from the commission of a crime'.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
^^ Oh my god, that's ingenious!
jn_12
Senior Member
In London, despite it being automated, there is an attendant at every station to answer questions, sell Oyster cards and help with any problems that can arise with automated systems. So if anything you'd be paying the same attendant to a bit of a different job than he is now, and implementing a new multi-million dollar system. Automated systems are a good idea to solve other issues, but if we're looking to save money by having less people on the job, it's not the answer.