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What I find disturbing is this increasing militarization of society. We've reached the point now where just because you've worn the uniform, suddenly your rights are supposed to supersede everyone else's. Suddenly it's your prerogative what gets in the museums, not the curators'. Things that have had established names for generations now ought to be renamed to reflect your glory; you can even demand it and now even silence is an insult. This attitude is extremely objectionable. I think our society has a good balance of respect for the sacrifice of our armed forces, while at the same time refraining for glorifying war in and of itself... but that's rapidly being forgotten thanks to our involvement in Afghanistan. And let me be frank here... most of the sacrificing we pay homage too was done fifty, sixty, or nearly a hundred years ago. We've been paying respect to that every year ever since. But I don't think that just because there's been a recent surge of guys being hurt or killed for being in the wrong place (a REALLY wrong place) at the wrong time, that we're suddenly somehow being disrespectful of veterans because we don't name everything from the Parliament Buildings on down after a veteran. This is Canada, not Fascist Italy. It's time these folks put it back in to perspective. Maybe silence is the wrong answer after all -- maybe City Council should grow a pair and bloody say it. :mad:
 
From the Post:

Mayor Rejects DVP Name Change For War Dead
New moniker may confuse drivers: Miller
Kelly Grant, National Post
Published: Wednesday, October 10, 2007

Mayor David Miller has decided not to back a veterans' campaign to rename the Don Valley Parkway in honour of Canada's war dead, because he fears the change might confuse drivers. "Among the most serious drawbacks [of the idea] is the risk of confusing motorists," Mr. Miller wrote in a letter composed more than four months after the Fort York branch of the Royal Canadian Legion and the St. George's Society first wrote to him.

"Not only would it share a name with [the Ottawa-area] Highway 416, but all maps and signs would have to be rewritten and Torontonians might be slow to adopt the new name."

Mr. Miller drew the ire of local veterans when he failed to promptly answer two letters, the first dated on May 31 and the second dated on July 3, asking him to support rechristening the DVP the Veterans Memorial Parkway. The Mayor finally responded in a letter dated Oct. 3 --one day after the National Post published a story on his silence -- and the man who penned the original letters received Mr. Miller's reply in the mail yesterday.

"It makes you wonder why he couldn't have said this six months ago," said Peter Moon, vice-president of the St. George's society, the city's oldest charity, and a member of the Fort York legion's executive.

"It's taken him almost half a year to answer us, which I find disappointing. It only happened after the media got on to the story."

Despite rejecting the group's request, the Mayor offered in his letter to meet with its members. He also apologized for his tardy reply.

"We get a great many letters daily in this office," said Stuart Green, a spokesman for the Mayor. "Frankly we don't respond as quickly as we'd like sometimes."

Mr. Moon, and Marv Rich, a retired colonel and president of the Fort York legion, said they planned to take the Mayor up on his offer of a meeting.

They hope to change Mr. Miller's mind when they meet him in person. If they can't convince him, they intend to lobby city council to take up the issue. "Obviously we're working uphill, but nevertheless it's an opportunity to explain our request," Mr. Rich said.

In his letter, Mr. Miller pointed out that the city already has over 50 streets named for veterans from before the First World War and continues to name new streets in honour of veterans and fallen soldiers.

"In 2006 and 2007 alone the City named five new streets after Canadian Victoria Cross recipients and six after those killed in action," he wrote.

But Mr. Moon said renaming the six-lane DVP the Veterans Memorial Parkway would do far more to remind Torontonians of veterans' sacrifices every day.

"Everybody knows the DVP. Why? Because we hear it on radio, we hear it on television, we read it in our newspapers and we talk about it. What better artery to rename to bring people's minds to the fact that veterans have served?"

The DVP also has a special significance because it serves as the final leg of all fallen soldiers' journeys from Canadian Forces Base Trenton to the Centre of Forensic Sciences in Toronto.

The province has already renamed the stretch of the 401 between Trenton and Toronto as the "Highway of Heroes."

kgrant@nationalpost.com

© National Post 2007

AoD
 
The DVP also has a special significance because it serves as the final leg of all fallen soldiers' journeys from Canadian Forces Base Trenton to the Centre of Forensic Sciences in Toronto.

Veterans organizations are demanding that province change the name of Dr. Fred Smith, a forensic pathologist at the Centre of Forensic Sciences in Toronto, to "Doctor of Heroes". They say they are making the request on behalf of the fallen soldiers for whom Dr. Smith serves as the last leg in their medical treatment, and that it is only right that his name be changed to reflect their sacrifice.

When Dr. Smith objected to having his name changed, partly on the grounds that he's been known as "Fred Smith" for 57 years, veterans groups were incensed. A spokesman for the veterans said, "I don't want to suggest that the doctor is an ingrate, a traitor, and possibly a terrorist sympathizer... but, unfortunately, it seems I have to."

Dr. Smith's refusal to sign the petition to have own his name changed was also characterized as "an insult to the dignity and sacrifice of Canadian soldiers".

In a spectacular display of guts, local politicians have quietly floated the idea that it might be a bad idea to change Dr. Smith's name, because then, he might not get his mail and that would make it hard for him to pay his bills. Veterans organizations have rightly dismissed this as a smoke screen for the real issue.

Dr. Smith has offered to wear two poppies on Remembrance Day in lieu of the name change, but so far, his proposal has been met with silence by veterans organizations, who probably think it's the best and only response to a stupid idea.
 
LP: A little much, IMO, but it still gave me a good laugh.

Why is it only the National Post covering this story?

I agree with Hydrogen when he says there's somethign wrong when something that shoud be a nice, unsolicited gesture (a street naming or renaming) is demanded. Lone Primate also makes a good point that Canadians are generally understated in their rememberance of Veterans, but certainly grateful - I for one like the British-Canadian tradition of poppy wearing, which I like a lot more than shallow yellow ribbons and demands for renaming highways. I think a veteran of the Afganistan mission is as important as a veteran of the Second World War, but not more so. Most of the namings that took place were after the war was over - ie Memorial Arenas, Memorial Drives, Memorial Parks, and I don't think that many things were re-named.

It should also be noted that provincial highway names have always been 'secondary' to the official designation - it's the 416, dedicated as the Veterans' Memorial Highway. Even the (ugh) "Highway of Heroes", though in this case, Sir John A. Macdonald and Georges-Etienne Cartier were shoved aside. Highway 25 in Halton Region, Dufferin Road 11, same thing.

The renaming of a 50 year old name - the Don Valley Parkway - is demanded by a legion branch and a charity I've never even heard of.

I've written lots of emails to politicans that I've never heard back from. Am I complaining to the National Post about it?

It's getting almost as ridiculous as when Berlin, Ontario had to change its name to prove its loyalty, by renaming itself after Lord Kitchener.
 
As for those here who condone the mayor ignoring the letter from veterans, I think the military should ignore Toronto (just like the federal government does) if they should ever be needed here.

Fine, and Toronto should ignore any demands to send taxes to the federal government to fund the military. We certainly can't be expected to pay for services not rendered.
 
I've written lots of emails to politicans that I've never heard back from. Am I complaining to the National Post about it?

Hmm, perhaps we should, as we have Kelly Grant's email address. I demand action on my letter to councillor Walker, as he has yet to respond to my letter informing him of the street light being burnt out on Pleasent Boulevard.
 
Hmm, perhaps we should, as we have Kelly Grant's email address. I demand action on my letter to councillor Walker, as he has yet to respond to my letter informing him of the street light being burnt out on Pleasent Boulevard.

Oh, come on, you guys. You haven't figured it out yet? It's obvious the way to get action on something like this is to publicly propose the street light be redubbed The Sacrificial Light and, oh, by the way, look at the sorry state of the thing, what are we saying about our military heroes, blah blah blah blah blah...
 
What I find disturbing is this increasing militarization of society.

Canada is just about the least militarized society out there (even the Swiss respect and understand the importance of a military)... but lets not kid ourselves, Canada's attitude is a luxury, pure and simple, and one that is borne of its proximity to the USA, otherwise we'd be just like every other nation out there.

We've reached the point now where just because you've worn the uniform, suddenly your rights are supposed to supersede everyone else's. Suddenly it's your prerogative what gets in the museums, not the curators'. Things that have had established names for generations now ought to be renamed to reflect your glory; you can even demand it and now even silence is an insult. This attitude is extremely objectionable.

I don't believe the veterans have 'demanded' anything, and I don't believe they feel their rights 'supersede' anybody else's. They've made a request, twice, to the mayor of their city that had gone ignored. Not a great way to treat people who as you say have worn the uniform in service of our nation. Now, as per AoD's recent posting it seems that the mayor has replied which is well and good, and is as it should be.


I think our society has a good balance of respect for the sacrifice of our armed forces, while at the same time refraining for glorifying war in and of itself... but that's rapidly being forgotten thanks to our involvement in Afghanistan. And let me be frank here... most of the sacrificing we pay homage too was done fifty, sixty, or nearly a hundred years ago. We've been paying respect to that every year ever since.

I am disturbed that you should politicize the military the way you do. On one side of your mouth you claim to respect the sacrifice made by those who wear our uniform, yet on the other side of your mouth you claim that since the cause is not just (in your opinion) then we should forget this. Well Lone Primate, believe it or not, there are probably many in the military who do not agree with this mission, but their job is to go where Canada's democratically elected government sends them, without question. Not only that, but to potentially die doing it. That's what 'service' is, and that's why they deserve the respect. It's a shame you should be so flippant and dismissive of that.


But I don't think that just because there's been a recent surge of guys being hurt or killed for being in the wrong place (a REALLY wrong place) at the wrong time, that we're suddenly somehow being disrespectful of veterans because we don't name everything from the Parliament Buildings on down after a veteran. This is Canada, not Fascist Italy. It's time these folks put it back in to perspective. Maybe silence is the wrong answer after all -- maybe City Council should grow a pair and bloody say it. :mad:

The veterans have asked for one major roadway to be named as a 'vivid' and daily acknowledgement of their sacrifice and service. Whether one feels that this is excessive or unwarranted or not is open for debate. Obvioulsy you know where I stand on it. The anger, however, arises from the poor way that it was handled, and the perceived insult of it. Responses like yours simply add fuel to the fire.
 
Canada is just about the least militarized society out there

And I think we should keep it that way. Maintaining that perspective serves a liberal democracy well. Militarism and the glorification of it is inimical to the long term health and vigor of democratic institutions. The military has its place, but it must be maintained sensibly within it.


and I don't believe they feel their rights 'supersede' anybody else's.

Good, because they don't. Or I'll put the question: when they don the uniform, do they do it to defend OUR rights, or just theirs?


They've made a request, twice, to the mayor of their city that had gone ignored.

Okay, let's not be cute here. We're not naive; we all understand that was a politically charged request that was little short of a politely-phrased demand. It's clear the government of the city was VASTLY uncomfortable with the request, and it's also clear that because of the attitudes of people like you, they were wary of turning it down for the reasons that it should be: it's a glorification of militarism largely alien to the Canadian mindset -- and particularly to the Torontonian mindset. Silence was their answer, though I admit it was gutless. But let's not pretend it was a simple, casual, apolitical request. It was not.


I am disturbed that you should politicize the military the way you do. On one side of your mouth you claim to respect the sacrifice made by those who wear our uniform, yet on the other side of your mouth you claim that since the cause is not just (in your opinion) then we should forget this.

I'm deeply disturbed by the attempt of the military and its supporters to increasingly implicate their presence and mindset into even the most casual facets of our public life. I'm disturbed by the attempts of people like you to imply that objections to it are illegitimate, ungrateful, and unpatriotic. The military is not Canada. It is an instrument of Canada. I am every bit as free to question its motives, counter its objectives, and hold it up to scrutiny as I am of the CBC, or Parliament, or the Royal Canadian Mint, or any other such institution. I do not want the intrusion of the military into the everyday aspects of my life in and around my home. I'm pleased it's there. But it has its place, and the names of things I use every day is not that place.


Not only that, but to potentially die doing it. That's what 'service' is, and that's why they deserve the respect.

Respect. Not deference. Not worship. Not kowtowing. My own family's background is military. I have pride in that. But I do not want it colouring even the most blase aspect of public life. Not only does it erode the respect for independent civilian institutions vital to the administration of a democracy, it cheapens the military and its contributions itself by making them plain, ordinary, and flatly unexceptional.



The veterans have asked for one major roadway to be named as a 'vivid' and daily acknowledgement of their sacrifice and service.

No. TWO. Where does this end?



Responses like yours simply add fuel to the fire.

Responses like mine are necessary to show where the limits in a free society ought to be. If they don't come, then we've lost it already... to the very thing intended to defend it.
 
And I think we should keep it that way. Maintaining that perspective serves a liberal democracy well. Militarism and the glorification of it is inimical to the long term health and vigor of democratic institutions. The military has its place, but it must be maintained sensibly within it.

Despotism, imperialism and religious fundamentalism - realities that have dominated history and that still characterize vast regions of the world - are also fairly "inimical to the long term health and vigor of democratic institutions", by the way.

The military serves all kinds of functions, at home and abroad, but since you are talking specifically about Democracy: Democracy in the world is recent, rare and fragile, and is preserved through public awareness and voting, and also through the willingness and ability of a democratic nation to defend it. As mentioned before, Canada gets a free pass on this - relatively speaking - due its proximity to our great protector south of the border. Lets not be smug or dismissive of this; most nations, the USA included, do not have the luxury of letting others safeguard and preserve their prescious democracy. They have to foot the bill for it and they have to encourage people to join and serve, which is not an easy task given what will be asked. Still, some Canadians get to revel in the self-delusion that they are somehow more enlightened, more morally righteous, and more peace-loving than other nations that are not blessed with the geographic location of Canada.


Okay, let's not be cute here. We're not naive; we all understand that was a politically charged request that was little short of a politely-phrased demand. It's clear the government of the city was VASTLY uncomfortable with the request, and it's also clear that because of the attitudes of people like you, they were wary of turning it down for the reasons that it should be: it's a glorification of militarism largely alien to the Canadian mindset -- and particularly to the Torontonian mindset. Silence was their answer, though I admit it was gutless. But let's not pretend it was a simple, casual, apolitical request. It was not..


You seem to be able to read into the minds of the government, and all Canadians and all Torontonians, quite amazing that! Your 'Kreskin'-like abilities notwithstanding, you are obviously reading into the events what you choose to see: First of all the government has not closed the door on the issue, nor concluded decisively on what the outcome will be, and it has agreed to meet with the groups making the request. What's more, the government's concern for traffic confusion hardly demonstrates this great fear of the rise of facism that you seem so conerned about. Again, free from your hyperbole and fantastic imaginations, what is clear and known is that the veterans made two requests that were ignored. Hardly a crime, despite your best efforts to portray it as one.


I'm deeply disturbed by the attempt of the military and its supporters to increasingly implicate their presence and mindset into even the most casual facets of our public life.

Indeed, better watch out lest all those wheelchair-bound, silver-headed veterans start goose-stepping down Yonge Street!


I'm disturbed by the attempts of people like you to imply that objections to it are illegitimate, ungrateful, and unpatriotic. The military is not Canada. It is an instrument of Canada. I am every bit as free to question its motives, counter its objectives, and hold it up to scrutiny as I am of the CBC, or Parliament, or the Royal Canadian Mint, or any other such institution. I do not want the intrusion of the military into the everyday aspects of my life in and around my home. I'm pleased it's there. But it has its place, and the names of things I use every day is not that place..

I'm equally disturbed that a simple request to commemorate Canada's military veterans, or the simple voicing of support and respect for the them, is perceive by some - and gratefully only a few - to herald the loss of the nation to facism. You are absolutely right to question Canada's military engagements, and that is your duty to do so, but you must be clear to direct your disapproval towards the government that the military serves and not the military itself (unless of course there is a coup). The military goes where it is told to go, and does what it is told to do. It is not the military's job to question whether a directive is right for Canada or not, or just or not, which would in fact be tantamount to a coup!

Glorifying firefighters is not glorifying arson, and glorifying our military personnel and the work they do is not glorifying war, it is glorifying the sacrifice made in the name of our democracy. Shame you cannot see that.


Responses like mine are necessary to show where the limits in a free society ought to be. If they don't come, then we've lost it already... to the very thing intended to defend it.

As you say, the military is there to defend our freedom. This is worthy of commemorating, imo. You have every right to question how our government uses its military in our name, but do not question the people who do what you or I are not willing to do, giving you the freedom and luxury to sit at your computer and vent your abhorance at a request made to change a road name.
 
say what?!

^
"do not question the people who do what you or I are not willing to do"

Do not question them? Are you serious? My goodness, that's truly terrifying.
Look, they choose to do this job, and that's great. But they're not demi-god's for doing so. I know some soldiers personally and, as my friends i'm going to question them if they try to take a smoke from me without asking. Even if they're in uniform.

Do not question them...enough.
 
Despotism, imperialism and religious fundamentalism - realities that have dominated history and that still characterize vast regions of the world - are also fairly "inimical to the long term health and vigor of democratic institutions", by the way.

And not a single one of them ever achieved a lick of success without the backing, support, and often instigation of a military apparatus willing to stifle internal opposition. You think the military and its backers "requesting" name changes that raise their profile is small beer. And it is. For now...



Democracy in the world is recent, rare and fragile, and is preserved through public awareness and voting, and also through the willingness and ability of a democratic nation to defend it.

And where does it not exist? In places too weak to defend themselves? No, there are plenty of despotisms in the world all too able to defend themselves and to inflict cruelty on others. A strong military is not the hallmark of a safe, stable democracy. Any country can have one, and most do. No; the hallmark of a democracy is one that maintains a distance and distinction between the military and civilian spheres of life, with the military aspect of it openly and unmistakably subordinate to the civilian. And where the military intrudes into the civilian aspect of everyday life, where that is freely allowed and welcomed by the starry-eyed and unblinking, the institutions of democracy are eroded and the democratic urge is squelched.



As mentioned before, Canada gets a free pass on this - relatively speaking - due its proximity to our great protector south of the border.

Who protect us from what? Pray tell. That one always makes me laugh when I hear it; it's like listening to someone praise their elephant charm for keeping Canada free of marauding elephants. The only country on Earth capable of mounting a credible military threat to Canada is the United States itself. So if you feel obliged to fawn all over them for protecting us from all those elephants, by all means, be my guest. Pardon me if I excuse myself from the adoration party.


Still, some Canadians get to revel in the self-delusion

Oh, evidently, yes.



You seem to be able to read into the minds of the government, and all Canadians and all Torontonians, quite amazing that!

There's nothing amazing in realizing the reason the city didn't respond was that it was a bad idea but they didn't need grief from the likes of you in stating it plainly. What's amazing is that you apparently aren't perceptive enough to get that.



What's more, the government's concern for traffic confusion hardly demonstrates this great fear of the rise of facism that you seem so conerned about.

No; rather, it constitutes a diplomatic excuse for saying "no" aimed at defusing a needlessly prickly situation that the government would not have been subjected to in the first place by a military establishment truly respectful of democratic prerogatives, rather than trumping up its own.



I'm equally disturbed that a simple request to commemorate Canada's military veterans, or the simple voicing of support and respect for the them, is perceive by some - and gratefully only a few - to herald the loss of the nation to facism.

Good, you're meant to be disturbed by it. It's meant to be provocative. It SHOULD be alarming that people are suggesting this. If nobody does, it's over. We'll simply go from "request" to "request". Canada would hardly be the first country to go down this slippery slope. And incidentally, if you're going to toss "fascism" around so freely in your discourse hereafter, be advised there's an "s" in the word. It comes from the Latin "fasces", a bundle of sticks, the symbol of the power of the state that was eventually subsumed by the army in the person of the emperor at the death of the Republic. That didn't happen overnight either, but in slow, incremental steps that no patriotic, right-thinking Roman could have objected to. Or so they were told, each and every time another "request" was made of the Senate.



The military goes where it is told to go, and does what it is told to do.

And if we tell it and its champions no, we're not renaming the road, quit asking?



Glorifying firefighters is not glorifying arson, and glorifying our military personnel and the work they do is not glorifying war, it is glorifying the sacrifice made in the name of our democracy. Shame you cannot see that.

And injecting the word "hero" into our daily discourse until it's utterly flabby, bland, and devoid of meaning other than "guy in a uniform" is to, all at once, trivialize the efforts of exceptional people truly worthy of recognition and to elevate the mundane (yes, fine, I'll say it) to a status beyond what is merited. If we build a society where simply sticking on a jacket that looks the same as a hundred thousand others is all that it takes to require of the people who don't an exceptionalistic status where rights, rules, and privileges are concerned -- and we are already partly down that path as it is -- then we're not a democracy. We're a place where just putting on special clothes and promising to kill people makes you better than everyone else; where the only way to be "equal" is to join them. This would hardly be a unique situation in human history, and the shame is yours, not mine, for whistling in a graveyard.



As you say, the military is there to defend our freedom. This is worthy of commemorating, imo.

Certainly. With Remembrance Day. Vimy Ridge. Cenotaphs. Parades. Poppies. Not, however, the papering over of the everyday civilian aspects of life with military themes, evocations of war and triumphalism and the tacit encouragement of elevating one's self by engaging in warcraft. There's a line between these two threads that should be obvious: one keeps it remarkable, unusual, with people awed by the very unfamiliarity of it all. The other makes it commonplace, pervasive, and ubiquitous. It's the difference between indulging in a fine wine at a special occasion and swilling liquor as your daily fare; between a healthy recognition and a pernicious obsession.



but do not question the people who do what you or I are not willing to do, giving you the freedom and luxury to sit at your computer and vent your abhorance at a request made to change a road name.

They don't GIVE me anything. It's MINE. They're employed to PRESERVE it, not GRANT it. If someone comes to take it, you better believe I'll be "willing" to make them think twice or die trying. BLOODY willing. But you're demanding we wallow in it, every day, just driving to work. No, I won't agree to that. And I won't submit to slick emotional blackmail that demands we repaint anything someone else wants camouflage khaki, or to being lectured about duty by someone who's just admitted that his own "sacrifice" likely amounts to nothing more than the $4.95 for the "support our troops" magnetic ribbon on his bumper.
 
Despotism, imperialism and religious fundamentalism - realities that have dominated history and that still characterize vast regions of the world - are also fairly "inimical to the long term health and vigor of democratic institutions", by the way.

The military serves all kinds of functions, at home and abroad, but since you are talking specifically about Democracy: Democracy in the world is recent, rare and fragile, and is preserved through public awareness and voting, and also through the willingness and ability of a democratic nation to defend it. As mentioned before, Canada gets a free pass on this - relatively speaking - due its proximity to our great protector south of the border. Lets not be smug or dismissive of this; most nations, the USA included, do not have the luxury of letting others safeguard and preserve their prescious democracy. They have to foot the bill for it and they have to encourage people to join and serve, which is not an easy task given what will be asked. Still, some Canadians get to revel in the self-delusion that they are somehow more enlightened, more morally righteous, and more peace-loving than other nations that are not blessed with the geographic location of Canada.

As you say, the military is there to defend our freedom. This is worthy of commemorating, imo. You have every right to question how our government uses its military in our name, but do not question the people who do what you or I are not willing to do, giving you the freedom and luxury to sit at your computer and vent your abhorance at a request made to change a road name.

The greatest threat to democracy - or more correctly - to an open society, is the thwarting of dissent and the continued free and open expression of ideas. This would include dissent towards the military or militarist attitudes. The military is not a defender of democracy per se, but can be utilized as one device for such an activity. Democracy did not emerge through military activity; it is a product of the history of ideas. If anything, there has been a long history of organized military services employed as a means to thwart or destroy dissenting groups. There is a long and well-documented history of organized militaries being used by despots, religious fundamentalists and imperialists to thwart or kill off opposition and dissent. So let's not stand the military beside democracy or free expression as if they automatically go hand in hand.

The idea that only the military defends democracy is specious. The concepts of dissent, human right and democratic responsibility have arisen exclusive of organized military activity and its traditions. By virtue of its existence, the military does not give us our freedom, grant our freedom or even defend our freedoms. The actions of individual persons, the belief in reason and the rule of law, the careful clarification of those concepts, the continued exercise and exploration of these ideas, and civil institutions such as the courts and legislatures that administrate these activities, are all much more essential with respect to democracy and an open society. The military is subserviant to all of these.

The supposed "luxury" of sitting in front of a computer debating the possible name change of a highway has nothing to do with the past activities of the military, and hardly is a "luxury" born of military activity. The right to dissent has its origins in other places, and is not a natural product of the military.
 
The greatest threat to democracy - or more correctly - to an open society, is the thwarting of dissent and the continued free and open expression of ideas. This would include dissent towards the military or militarist attitudes. The military is not a defender of democracy per se, but can be utilized as one device for such an activity.

I don't disagree Hydrogen, and I don't think I'm contradicting you: democracy relies on dissent, freedom of expression, the right to vote etc., and the military has no role in this (although one could argue that one of their roles is to ensure the peaceful transition of power as dictated through the democratic process so that no one group can undermine this process, or worse). As you say, the military is the protector of our democracy (and our national interests) from external challenges. This is not only 'pie in the sky' historicist musings of the War of 1812, but consider what is happening along Canada's arctic coast as global warming continues to free the shipping lanes, the area becoming of far more strategic, economic and political interest to many other nations...


Democracy did not emerge through military activity; it is a product of the history of ideas. If anything, there has been a long history of organized military services employed as a means to thwart or destroy dissenting groups. There is a long and well-documented history of organized militaries being used by despots, religious fundamentalists and imperialists to thwart or kill off opposition and dissent. So let's not stand the military beside democracy or free expression as if they automatically go hand in hand.

On the contrary, they go hand in hand: as you say the armed forces of despots, imperialists and religious fundamentalists are always poised and ready to spread their power. Olive branches are of little use in defence against this, for the harsh reality is that democracy only survives if those who enjoy it are willing to defend it to the end (the Brits during WWII were willing to do this, the French were not). Clearly, the history of democracy is *not* free from bloodshed as might be attractive to think. The world's first democracies, the USA and France, led bitter and bloody insurrections, against seemingly improbable odds to achieve their independence, and they have had to be prepared to do so ever since to maintain them.

The idea that only ...By virtue of its existence, the military does not give us our freedom, grant our freedom or even defend our freedoms. The actions of individual persons, the belief in reason and the rule of law, the careful clarification of those concepts, the continued exercise and exploration of these ideas, and civil institutions such as the courts and legislatures that administrate these activities, are all much more essential with respect to democracy and an open society. The military is subserviant to all of these.

These things are crucial to the functioning and preservation of democracy within. From without, these things have little impact withstanding forces that disregard those beliefs and that would threaten their stability: tanks rolling into Poland, or tanks in Tiananmen Square are not stopped by the belief system of those they oppose, but only by the willingness and ability of those who hold it to defend it in the resistance of those who would oppress them.

The supposed "luxury" of sitting in front of a computer debating the possible name change of a highway has nothing to do with the past activities of the military, and hardly is a "luxury" born of military activity. The right to dissent has its origins in other places, and is not a natural product of the military.

I would disagree. lets not forget that at one time in our history Canada's current protector was once its invader, and there would be no 'Canada' today had the military not been able and willing to defend our belief system, our interests, and the will of the people here. As mentioned before, for the past 50 to 100 years Canada has been unique in the world. Due to our geographic location we are tacitly under the protection of the world's superpower, while it is our treaties and alliances with the USA that protect us from the USA, not our military, and by extension it is the military of the USA that protects us from other external threats. We all know what would happen if the USA really chose to flex its muscles in Canada. Would we have the means to respond in any way? What would happen to Canada's interests, to Canada's viewpoint, to Canada's belief system and democratic will in the face of a USA that didn't care about it?? This is the day to day reality that other democracies and independent nations in the world face.
 
On the contrary, they go hand in hand: as you say the armed forces of despots, imperialists and religious fundamentalists are always poised and ready to spread their power. Olive branches are of little use in defence against this, for the harsh reality is that democracy only survives if those who enjoy it are willing to defend it to the end (the Brits during WWII were willing to do this, the French were not). Clearly, the history of democracy is *not* free from bloodshed as might be attractive to think. The world's first democracies, the USA and France, led bitter and bloody insurrections, against seemingly improbable odds to achieve their independence, and they have had to be prepared to do so ever since to maintain them.


As I stated, democracy did not emerge through military activity. The example you cite (World War Two) is one where a democracy is faced by a militarist dictator, so my point still stands. The military structure becomes a means of a democratic society to defend itself, but neither the military nor militarism as an idea, is the a source of democracy. That a military can be formed and used to justly defend that democracy is a given. There are principles for just war, and defence of one's culture and society from invasion and destruction are recognized are recognized as being a just cause for war (I'm really simplifying things here for the sake of brevity). Is that worthy of respect? Without a doubt.

These things are crucial to the functioning and preservation of democracy within. From without, these things have little impact withstanding forces that disregard those beliefs and that would threaten their stability: tanks rolling into Poland, or tanks in Tiananmen Square are not stopped by the belief system of those they oppose, but only by the willingness and ability of those who hold it to defend it in the resistance of those who would oppress them.

Again, I will have disagree with you here. To repeat: the actions of individual persons, the belief in reason and the rule of law, the careful clarification of those concepts, the continued exercise and exploration of these ideas, and civil institutions such as the courts and legislatures that administrate these activities, are all much more essential with respect to democracy and an open society. These things matter within a society; but they also matter beyond its borders.

The examples you provide are telling. Poland is no longer under the control of a totalitarian government, nor are many other countries. A key motivation has been the idea of democracy and the myriad of linked notions and concepts that it represents to many people around the world. As a society, China is slowly opening up. Over time, this will continue to have an immense impact on that country and its people. Myanmar is a nation where there is an effort underway to establish a democracy - one being thwarted by a military dictatorship. Pakistan is gradually shifting back towards democratic rule, and away from military control. There are many other slow and painful examples of emerging democracies.

The idea is that democracy - and freedom - represents something fundamental to many people, and for many of these individuals, once they have achieved a democratic order, they may be quite unwilling to lose it. These individuals may very well be willing to fight and even die for it. But this action has nothing directly to do with militarism. It is an act of fighting for something - an idea of being - and not just the joining of an organization that is formally structured to carry out war, that matters.

I would disagree. lets not forget that at one time in our history Canada's current protector was once its invader, and there would be no 'Canada' today had the military not been able and willing to defend our belief system, our interests, and the will of the people here.

I believe you mean the war of 1812. There was no Canada as we know it then; it was part of the British Empire. The Americans had, shall we say, issues. The Canada of that period was, to a very significant degree, being governed overseas. The Americans were governing themselves. They were a fledgling democracy then.

Due to our geographic location we are tacitly under the protection of the world's superpower, while it is our treaties and alliances with the USA that protect us from the USA, not our military, and by extension it is the military of the USA that protects us from other external threats. We all know what would happen if the USA really chose to flex its muscles in Canada. Would we have the means to respond in any way? What would happen to Canada's interests, to Canada's viewpoint, to Canada's belief system and democratic will in the face of a USA that didn't care about it?? This is the day to day reality that other democracies and independent nations in the world

So our way of life was threatened by the Americans. And then our way of life was protected by Americans. Which one is it exactly? And then we should be aware that Canada could be invaded by the Americans?

Sorry, it's just a little confusing.

The United States, with all its faults, is a democracy - just like us - with all our faults. Common respect for common civil society is what keeps our borders open. Beyond this, I'm not too sure what point are you trying to make here. Are you suggesting we arm ourselves based on a paranoia that the United States will invade us? They don't see us as a threat, so why would they invade us? Unsound fears are not reasonable ways to structure international policy. Besides, many of us don't operate in terms of raw territoriality anymore.
 

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