[raptor]

Some relevant info here, from the York Committee of the Whole (Nov 2 2017 meeting):

Council is strongly opposed to any proposed infrastructure which could increase freight rail traffic through the Region.
The second concern relates to ensuring that the Plan does not identify any projects that could result in increased freight rail movements through York Region. As part of the “In Delivery” Regional Rail and Rapid Transit Network, there is a conceptual new freight corridor shown. This new freight corridor is being studied as it could free up rail capacity for more GO service along the Kitchener GO Rail Corridor by shifting CN freight traffic from the section of the Kitchener line that it owns between Georgetown and Bramalea. This is consistent with the planned expansion of two-way all-day GO Rail service on the Kitchener line as part of the RER plan. The Metrolinx-proposed new freight corridor is more clearly shown in the context of the existing rail corridor ownership on Attachment 13. In recent discussions, Metrolinx staff has indicated the potential new freight corridor will not increase freight rail traffic through York Region as this potential freight corridor will only provide a more direct routing for CN freight traffic already bound to and from the CN-York mainline. The new freight corridor proposed in the Metrolinx Plan differs from the proposal to free up rail capacity along the Milton Rail Corridor which would require rerouting CP freight traffic and significantly increasing freight traffic through York Region. This idea was presented in an earlier August 2015 feasibility study commissioned by the Cities of Cambridge, Mississauga, Toronto and Town of Milton. The details of freeing up capacity on the Milton Rail Corridor were presented to Council in January 2016. In discussions held earlier this year, senior CN staff indicated to senior Regional representatives that CN was also opposed to any connection between the CP/Milton rail line and the CN-York mainline. Staff will continue to monitor rail link planning in the GTA and report to Council if any plans result in significant additional freight rail movements through York Region.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Some relevant info here, from the York Committee of the Whole (Nov 2 2017 meeting):

CN staff indicated to senior Regional representatives that CN was also opposed to any connection between the CP/Milton rail line and the CN-York mainline.

Consistent with what I heard.

 

[steveintoronto]

Consistent with what I heard.

In the absence of the Feds getting involved (as is their responsibility) I must admit this is now looking unlikely to be the Missing Link as proposed and necessary. It's one more indication of how dysfunctional our multi-level governance has become.

And that leaves just the Province to deal with CN and the regional NIMBYs. Also no sign of action.

Toronto the tied and tired. It does not bode well for the future of cities, provinces or the nation in general.

Is the hockey game on TV?

 

[drum118]

In the absence of the Feds getting involved (as is their responsibility) I must admit this is now looking unlikely to be the Missing Link as proposed and necessary. It's one more indication of how dysfunctional our multi-level governance has become.

And that leaves just the Province to deal with CN and the regional NIMBYs. Also no sign of action.

Toronto the tied and tired. It does not bode well for the future of cities, provinces or the nation in general.

Is the hockey game on TV?

Like I said sometime ago, 2050 is the earliest you are going to see this bypass and a good number of us will be long gone.

Unless the Feds and the Province come up with full cost to force CP/CN to use the same corridor on 6 tracks, not going to happen even for the CN section from Brampton to Milton.

Best to invest money to have a 4/5 track corridors where possible for the section between Brampton and Georgetown. Without major expropriation for Downtown Brampton, you can only get 3 tracks in there. The rest can handle 4/5 tracks easy.

CP Mainline corridor can handle 4 track in Toronto, Mississauga and Halton. From Milton to Cambridge at least 2 -3 tracks and no idea if a 4th can be had without expropriation, but require rebuilding overpasses or underpasses to get 3-4 tracks.

You better 3 track the corridor from day one with provision for 4 tracks from Georgetown to Kitchener/London/Windsor.

 

[steveintoronto]

Best to invest money to have a 4/5 track corridors where possible for the section between Brampton and Georgetown. Without major expropriation for Downtown Brampton, you can only get 3 tracks in there. The rest can handle 4/5 tracks easy.

I tend towards agreeing on giving up on "The Missing Link"...but raise the stakes on Wynne's claim for HSR:

The "Bypass" should be via Pearson, GTAA contribute to the costs, and bypass Brampton, Georgetown et al, as the first leg of the HSR (which may or may not ever get built, but let's hold Wynne to her word) and either a link is connected from the partially built HSR RoW to south of Acton, or it continues to K/W. Stations would be built where proposed for HSR, and perhaps south of Georgetown and Brampton.

The concept of putting more tracks through Brampton's core appears to be a complex and costly solution to something that has little long-term value. Better to aim higher and utilize the sections as they are built, or don't do it at all.

Normally I wouldn't suggest this as a solution, but since forces are aligning to claim that 'HSR is an imminent reality', then I call them on it.

 

[44 North]

Article here with York Region residents commenting on the Missing Link and the potential of CP Rail traffic on the CN York Sub.

Meh, this is typical behaviour found anywhere, ditto for the lowly politicians that side with them. The real highlight in that article is that the Transportation Minister is opposed. Sure he could support improving transportation for the region with the bypass, and he obviously has direct control over much of Metrolinx. But improving his election chances is way more important. Wonder to what extent he's delayed this thing.

 

[steveintoronto]

...The real highlight in that article is that the Transportation Minister is opposed. Sure he could support improving transportation for the region with the bypass, and he obviously has direct control over much of Metrolinx. But improving his election chances is way more important. Wonder to what extent he's delayed this thing.

If anyone can find an official statement by Il Duce on this, please supply, because here he is stating the opposite to what he has to the link being discussed:

Support has also been received from MPPs like Michael Chan (Liberal, Markham-Unionville), Gila Martow (Progressive Conservative, Thornhill), and perhaps most importantly, Minister of Transport and Vaughan Liberal MPP Steven Del Duca, who has said the government has no plans to move freight train traffic from the Mississauga-Milton line to the York Region line.

Ontario government wants railways to make room for GO transit
Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca said he wants Ottawa to join Ontario in looking for ways to divert freight.

By Tess Kalinowski TorStar Transportation reporter
Mon., Nov. 16, 2015
The province wants Canada’s new federal Liberal government to join it in pushing private railways to make room for more passenger trains on the Milton and Kitchener GO lines.

Ontario Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca said it’s time to formalize discussions on rationalizing the Kitchener and Milton tracks, which are still owned in sections by CN and CP.

It shouldn’t take more than two hours to travel by rail between Toronto and Waterloo, he told a transit conference organized by the Toronto Region Board of Trade on Monday.

Without an agreement with the railways, the province won’t realize the potential of its plan to build high speed rail to connect the tech hub in Waterloo or provide the commuter benefits of its $13.5 billion GO electrified regional express rail program.

The municipalities along those corridors have already suggested ways of rerouting freight to free up the tracks for commuters.

One solution is called, the “Missing Link,” a new freight connection between the Milton line west of Trafalgar Rd. and the CN line at Bramalea, to travel along a track adjacent to Highway 407. It would leave the Milton tracks free for commuters and keep dangerous cargo away from more populated areas.

“I think there’s an opportunity there for us to really unlock those two corridors and perhaps do some other interesting things but I can’t force it. The province does not have jurisdiction over the rail companies so we need to work together to make it happen,” said Del Duca, who added that he would “like to believe” that a new federal Liberal government would be onside.

He said he’s spoken to new Liberal Transport Minister Marc Garneau and hopes they will meet soon.

“We need to be present nationally at these conversations. The jurisdictional challenges aren’t solved unless you’ve got a co-ordinated response at the federal level,” said Toronto MP Adam Vaughan.

“You can’t move transit more effectively through many cities without talking to the rail companies,” he said.

“I don’t think it’s a question of issuing edicts. I don’t think there isn’t common ground here. We’ve had governments who always look for the battleground and find a way to get stuff done . . . it’s about finding the common ground,” he said.
[...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...ransit-construction-mayor-john-tory-says.html

It appears that the Minister of Announcements has another announcement to make, that being where he actually stands on this.

Someone somewhere is telling porkies...

 

[Allandale25]

Like I said sometime ago, 2050 is the earliest you are going to see this bypass and a good number of us will be long gone.

We should get more news next Spring and then after the 2018 election.

So, I think it's premature to pick random dates. Yes, a new Provincial government could back out or decide it doesn't have the money. Yes, CN could demand too steep of a price. Yes, CN could decide they would let more service and tracks between Bramalea and Georgetown.

In the meantime, I'd rather wait for more formal public news from CN/Metrolinx rather that believe random dates.

 

[steveintoronto]

CN could demand too steep of a price

Under the Relocations Act, the Feds can mandate the action, and then decide what is fair compensation.

But that would take backbone and integrity...

Out of interest, rather than my quoting the various Acts on who must do what by whom and degree of compensation, here it is from the Railway Assoc of Can themselves:

https://www.railcan.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Rail_relocation_factsheet_EN.pdf

Here's the link to the 'resource tool' above:
https://www.railcan.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Rail_relocation_factsheet_EN.pdf

And from that linked page:

[...]
Agency order
Following a hearing, the Agency may under section 7 of the RRCA order the railway company to cease operations over any line within the transportation study area and, if necessary, to remove tracks, buildings, bridges and other structures in the transportation study area.

For the purpose of carrying out the transportation plan, the Agency may, as per requirements under the Railway Safety Act, require a railway company to permit the operation of another railway company, rapid transit or public transit system to operate over its lines within the transportation study area. If so, the railway company would receive the compensation set out in the financial plan according to rules prescribed by the Agency.

Relocation grant
The Agency may recommend to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities that a relocation grant be paid to meet part of the implementation costs. The grant can meet up to half of the net costs of railway relocation as determined by the Agency.
[...]

https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/relocation-railway-lines-urban-areas-a-resource-tool

 

[crs1026]

Like @Allandale25, I am not ready to conclude that negotiations with CN have already failed. More likely, they are getting to the 'blinking point'. Count on CN to seek a rich deal, and count CN to use the province's sense of urgency for leverage - by which I mean I would predict CN is dragging its feet to get a higher offer. CN must know that the whole deal may evaporate with an election, so Wynne is likely 'the devil they know'. CN must know that whatever benefits they have extracted may vanish if the deal isn't signed by the election. So, the stars may be aligning. In negotiations, silence often means the parties have ceased posturing and are talking seriously. We will see.

I would not rely too heavily on the printed law. Clearly Ottawa is not about to perturbate its relationship with the railways. There is in fact a review of the CTA going on in Parliament. I have not been paying much attention to it, but one source who is 'in the room' for the submissions has told me that the railways have taken very extreme positions (eg on interswitching, they have reportedly said that maintaining competition between railways is irrelevant because any shipper can switch to trucks if railway service is inaedquate). That leaves the government likely heading to a confrontation with the railways. No surprise if they keep their powder dry until they have that review complete. Also, the regulatory framework for railways is heavily impacted by NAFTA, and that's up in the air right now.

It's a bit of a puzzle that Wynne can't get more alignment out of a Liberal administration in Ottawa, but when I look at the federal and provincial ministers, it's no real surprise. Both levels understand handing out money much better than they understand policy creation. CN will get a good deal, and both governments will pony up and pay the bill. With justice and photo ops for all.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

My present cynicism is down to Il Duce, and his inability to make the trains run on time, let alone his now stating something, according to the article, polar opposite to his statement two years prior:

Support has also been received from MPPs like Michael Chan (Liberal, Markham-Unionville), Gila Martow (Progressive Conservative, Thornhill), and perhaps most importantly, Minister of Transport and Vaughan Liberal MPP Steven Del Duca, who has said the government has no plans to move freight train traffic from the Mississauga-Milton line to the York Region line.

That may be a trick misrepresentation of Del Duca's position, as it allows the CN only diversion.

 

[mdrejhon]

2050? That's harsh, except for CP-side.

I think a Freight bypass (satisfying CN-side elements) can be completed by the 2030s -- a decade's worth of delaying.

I'd concur with Allandale25 that repeated movements forward on the CN bypass will occur. It's fully adding CP to the Freight bypass that's a much taller order -- and 2050 seems realistic for CP -- but still should be protected-for in a long-term phasing.

 

[Allandale25]

Just as a reminder in case some missed the latest update when the timing of when we could hear more, here's a post earlier in this thread that I did a few weeks ago. That's the next calendar check in.

 

[Allandale25]

For a City of Brampton "Transit Committee of Chairs" staff noted the following in this report for the Bypass. Later on in the report from the image below, staff wrote: "1. Met with other municipalities along the Innovation Super Corridor in late July to align messaging on RER, HSR and CN Freight Bypass prior to AMO"

 

[Allandale25]

^ Speaking of the Bypass, I don't think this map from the draft RTP has been posted. Not sure how much should be read into it but two observations:

1) the dotted yellow line doesn't continue between Meadowvale and Milton. Maybe that's on purpose to get Mississauga the hope that CN could still let CP rail join in?
2) the dotted yellow line appears run along the north side of the 407 west of the 410. Not sure if that's on purpose. Maybe it's an indication they don't have enough space on the south and/or want to avoid it touching Mississauga?