[Sunnyside]

I sometimes wonder how much we can blame public officials from days past with not envisioning the future. I'm not sure 'urban planning' was much of a concept back then. There was very little opposition back then partially because the the York sub went through no community of any size. It was pretty much all farmland, places like Markham and Thornhill were skirted, small and probably had no local media. As well, society was much less 'activist' back then.

There is a strategic risk to running a significant element of our economy all in one corridor, but such is the world of involving private enterprise. If we were really that concerned about not having all of our container eggs in one basket, we would have insisted that one line remain in the Ottawa Valley, but that would have required taxpayers to subsidize it.

Interesting reflection to the Seaway. I think you are right to wonder whether such an undertaking would be possible today. I don't know that answer but do know that it would have taken a whole longer, simply on the grounds of EA reviews and public consultations.

Reality is not so kind that planning just didn’t exist. No, it was just completely infatuated with cars to the point that I doubt it crossed anyone’s mind that people would want a railway near their town. And to be fair, as a freight only corridor I don’t blame them- this wasn’t going to ever bring any passenger service to those towns.

Also, I get the concerns about running all the freights in one corridor. But if we are using the 407 ROW in tandem with the York sub, it’s not really one corridor as much as it’s two in close parallel. Semantics, sure, but we aren’t making both CN and CP use the same tracks in this or any practical scenario besides via the ‘missing’ link itself.

 

[crs1026]

It’s all moot in that the plan is off the table and likely won’t surface again unless a serious intent to put 2WAD on the Milton line emerges.
But it could reaurface quickly if another serious incident were to happen. Let’s hope not.
I do think the risks have to be kept in mind, not as a doomsday fear - but because trains are bigger longer and the absolute volume of toxic material in a single movement is that much larger.
Those old newspapers were crammed with reports of calamities on the rails - rail safety is much greater these days - but keeping railways away from urban areas was just not a concern back then. It’s definitely a concern today and for the future.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

Back in the '50s when planning for the York/Halton bypass began, the percentage of long distance freight hauled on roads was nowhere near what it is today - rail was still king. I'm not so sure it was a conscious decision to bypass communities, but rather draw as straight a (curved) line as possibly between the two end points and a a new yard in the middle to remove traffic from downtown Toronto. It was only intended to connect two ends.

Most of the towns that were bypassed already had rail lines running through them anyway and most still had active rail-served industries.

Dislike it in hindsight, but the post-WWII world was personal car centric. This wasn't forced by any government, it was accommodated by them because the population demanded it. The evolution was led by the people, our parents and grandparents.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Before we open the door to a another full corridor using the 413 I feel the need to point out that Malton to Woodbridge is not one of the places that has issues getting a pair of CP track alongside CN. It's just possible that all the visions of freeing up the midtown line and getting CP out of Toronto have caused a lot of us to forget that bypassing only Mississauga and joining Mactier in Vaughan would be a much smaller project than even full coproduction that would still free up the core Milton line for GO.

 

[drum118]

Before we open the door to a another full corridor using the 413 I feel the need to point out that Malton to Woodbridge is not ones places that has issues getting a pair of CP track alongside CN. It's just possible that all the visions of freeing up the midtown line and getting CP out of Toronto have caused a lot of us to forget that bypassing only Missauga and joining Mactier in Vaughan would be a much smaller project than even full coproduction that would still free up the core Milton line for GO.

You are forgetting where CN tracks run in the first place that rules out CP using the Halton Sub period as it will effect GO service on the KW line.

No matter which way you want to cut the idea of CP and CN using the same corridor, you need 4-5 tracks running in someone else backyard who don't want to see it in the first place

Until CP moves their Agincourt yard some place east, CP trains will have to backtrack from CN corridor to get to the current yard.

Lots of overpasses and underpasses will have to be rebuilt for the wider corridor compare what there is there today. Even widening the corridor may require more land in places.

The province has to step-up and invest about $2.5 Billion to 4 track the Milton line alone that was to be 3 by 2011, 4 by 2021 under the Liberal platform for election time. Easy to 4 track Midtown, but will require grade separation to roads been close as its impossible to grade separate them in the first place. The cost will be more than twice the cost of the Milton Line.

ML has seen the light that the bypass is dead and would cost more problems in the long run that it not worth the effort to try doing it.

 

[Bojaxs]

Before we open the door to a another full corridor using the 413 I feel the need to point out that Malton to Woodbridge is not ones places that has issues getting a pair of CP track alongside CN. It's just possible that all the visions of freeing up the midtown line and getting CP out of Toronto have caused a lot of us to forget that bypassing only Missauga and joining Mactier in Vaughan would be a much smaller project than even full coproduction that would still free up the core Milton line for GO.


View attachment 515403

CN will NEVER allow CP trains to run through their Halton & York sub. Even if CP laid their own tracks. Having CP trains run through here would impede CN's intermodal business. CP trains will be cutting right through between the Malport and Brampton Yard. When CN is building a train at the south end of the Brampton yard it's common for the trains to be soo long that they stretch from the Brampton yard all the way to just before the Goreway Dr. crossing. In these instances CP trains would have to halt and wait for CN to finish building their trains. If CP used a 407 bypass, the train traffic would be soo high in the Halton & York sub that it would make it difficult for CN to move trains from the Brampton yard into the Malport yard, and vice versa. When CN moves a train between Malport and Brampton, again CP would have to halt it's train and wait for CN to finish moving it's train and clear the tracks before CP can start moving again.
Also consider the risk to CN if CP were to have a derail along this sub. Basically halting CN's entire GTA network.

The only way to make this work is;
407 bypass for CN
413 bypass for CP where they approach their intermodal yard off of highway 50 from the North.

If CP were to agree to a 413 bypass, it would open up the Milton line to AD2W passenger traffic, but wouldn't guarantee the Midtown.

 

[just east of the creek]

We're very fond of Crown Corporations and other semi independent Government agencies in this country, and we love to grow our government. Currently we have at least three or four of these 'agencies' in the business of railways.... so how about a new Federal Agency - the GTA Terminal Railway. GTA Rail would assume all trackage responsibilities for improvements, maintenance, expansion, signaling, dispatching (not including designated yards) for all railways in the broader GTA areas. The reach of GTA Rail would generally include all service areas for Go Lines (current and possible), so theoretically a large circle centered on Toronto including Niagara Falls, K-W (or maybe even London), Barrie, Stouffville, Peterborough, and Cobourg.

The mandate would be to bring continuing service improvements in speed and frequency to both Passenger and Freight, eliminating dispatching delays, and working to create a rail 'hub' that will encompass all growth in traffic and encompass new technologies (well for Canadian rail - so possibly in conjunction with the interested rail operators - Via, GO, CN, CP etc electrification, possibly hydrogen. PTC etc etc)

A little like the big brother of Metrolinx, but not reporting to Doug Ford. So that's a plus. I know the idea has been tried elsewhere with differing levels of success (?), but heh, or maybe eh! we can put our 'Made in Canada' stamp on the business of running a railway.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

We're very fond of Crown Corporations and other semi independent Government agencies in this country, and we love to grow our government. Currently we have at least three or four of these 'agencies' in the business of railways.... so how about a new Federal Agency - the GTA Terminal Railway. GTA Rail would assume all trackage responsibilities for improvements, maintenance, expansion, signaling, dispatching (not including designated yards) for all railways in the broader GTA areas. The reach of GTA Rail would generally include all service areas for Go Lines (current and possible), so theoretically a large circle centered on Toronto including Niagara Falls, K-W (or maybe even London), Barrie, Stouffville, Peterborough, and Cobourg.

The mandate would be to bring continuing service improvements in speed and frequency to both Passenger and Freight, eliminating dispatching delays, and working to create a rail 'hub' that will encompass all growth in traffic and encompass new technologies (well for Canadian rail - so possibly in conjunction with the interested rail operators - Via, GO, CN, CP etc electrification, possibly hydrogen. PTC etc etc)

A little like the big brother of Metrolinx, but not reporting to Doug Ford. So that's a plus. I know the idea has been tried elsewhere with differing levels of success (?), but heh, or maybe eh! we can put our 'Made in Canada' stamp on the business of running a railway.

It would make much more sense to house it in Metrolinx than a wholly new agency, but the big obstacle remains the amount of yards, terminals and general operational infrastructure the Class 1s have tied directly into the corridors inside of the areas that need bypassing. It might make sense to technically retain public ownership of a bypass while leasing to the operator, but I suspect neither railroad would go for it.

This frankly IS a time and place I think the outcome is important enough that we can quite reasonably entertertain just gifting the RRs infrastructure.

 

[Bojaxs]

Late night, 3D paint job of the CN 407 bypass, and the CP 413 bypass. The CP 413 bypass is meant to go to CP's Vaughan Intermodal yard.
The tracks between Milton and Lisgar will be parallel running tracks between CP and GO transit. CP and GO will split off before Lisgar. GO tracks will have either fly over or go under CP tracks to accommodate CP trains turning north before Lisgar. GO transit's layover, Milton station is on the north side of the tracks, while CP's Milton yard is on the south side of the tracks.

 

[lenaitch]

View attachment 516505
Late night, 3D paint job of the CN 407 bypass, and the CP 413 bypass. The CP 413 bypass is meant to go to CP's Vaughan Intermodal yard.
The tracks between Milton and Lisgar will be parallel running tracks between CP and GO transit. CP and GO will split off before Lisgar. GO tracks will have either fly over or go under CP tracks to accommodate CP trains turning north before Lisgar. GO transit's layover, Milton station is on the north side of the tracks, while CP's Milton yard is on the south side of the tracks.

It might solve any GO Milton congestion but it seems like a lot of money and added track miles to still end up with freight on the mid-Toronto corridor.

 

[Bojaxs]

It might solve any GO Milton congestion but it seems like a lot of money and added track miles to still end up with freight on the mid-Toronto corridor.

Indeed. No guarantees for the mid-town corridor. The intention is to free up the Kitchener & Milton lines. Asking CP to build a bypass going around the entire GTA is a lot to ask for. It might be easier to convince CP to build a bypass going around the rest of the GTA once some kind of 413 bypass has been constructed. Something that goes past King City and Gormley, under Whitchurch-Stouffville, and eventually re-connect with the original mainline somewhere north of Pickering or Ajax.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Re the discussion of a 413 link, it occurs to me that there is a potentially meaningful saving to be had by CP taking the Halton sub north of Milton instead of cutting a wholly new corridor (though the actual 413's avoidance of Georgetown might make the new route preferable).

At the end of the day though, nothing I've seen here about interference with Brampton Intermodal and Macmillan says that the York ROW doesn't work... just that it needs extensive grade separation and very likely land takings in York. I'm not on the face of things convinced those are necessarily worse than having to build a wholly new corridor. Though the connection to Vaughan Intermodal IS nice. I'm honestly tempted to recommend a 413 option now, with the (EA level ~30%) design and protection of York East CP corridor both parties can live with included in the scope.

 

[crs1026]

Since discussion has rekindled in other threads, I thought I would bump this thread to help move the discussion back where it belongs.

And I thought it would be helpful to offer these clippings, just to demonstrate how clear the original concept was that the Bypass was meant to free up the Lakeshore lines and downtown rail yards for other things.... and how long ago that concept was laid out.

The point being, people who now look at the York Sub and say "hey, there's a rail corridor there, maybe we can put a GO line on it" may not have the full picture of what was intended and agreed to a long time ago. CN has a lot of justification (and possibly legal precedent) to say, the Lakeshore is yours, but the Bypass is ours, and let's keep it that way.

- Paul

 

[Metroscapes]

Since discussion has rekindled in other threads, I thought I would bump this thread to help move the discussion back where it belongs.

And I thought it would be helpful to offer these clippings, just to demonstrate how clear the original concept was that the Bypass was meant to free up the Lakeshore lines and downtown rail yards for other things.... and how long ago that concept was laid out.

The point being, people who now look at the York Sub and say "hey, there's a rail corridor there, maybe we can put a GO line on it" may not have the full picture of what was intended and agreed to a long time ago. CN has a lot of justification (and possibly legal precedent) to say, the Lakeshore is yours, but the Bypass is ours, and let's keep it that way.

- Paul

View attachment 543966

View attachment 543967

I don't really think putting GO service on the York Sub / Halton sub eats of Halwest is a serious proposal when significant chunks of it are flanked by industrial lands and the 407, and what residential areas are nearby are super low density. Especially when the 407 Transitway has been in planning for so long anyway.

 

[Bojaxs]

If the provincial and federal governments are serious about going ahead with the 413, then they should talk to CPKC about running a freight bypass parallel to it. Doug Ford achieves two of his goals. Construct the 413 and improve service on the Milton line. The 413 goes from between Milton and Lisgar GO stations all the way to CP's Intermodal yard.

Ford and Trudeau governments ‘come to an agreement’ on Highway 413 | Globalnews.ca

Ontario's attorney general says the federal and provincial governments have 'come to an agreement' over the future of Highway 413.

globalnews.ca