[Allandale25]

^ I was curious what the Davenport Grade Separate would cost so I searched online. This FAQ from Metrolinx describes it as follows:

How much will the Guideway and Greenway concept cost?
Metrolinx has increased the initial investment of $140 million to approximately $210 million to invest in public realm improvements in the form of integrated art, lighting, multi-use path (Greenway) and structural design (Guideway).

Guess we'll have to see if the Ford government keeps the $70m for the public realm improvements.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Just one observer’s humble opinion, but... In light of the recent news that Toronto’s commute overall has been ranked among the worst in the world (6th worst worldwide, worst in North America), it needs to be said again that Go trains are the biggest game changer we have. More trains, all day, all lines. That the (previous) Liberal provincial government enabled ML to get some new additional service moving is ok, but many instances & opportunities have been and continue to be ignored in favour of more home run improvements. They should be 4 tracking Milton as we speak. More track should have been laid on the Barrie Line to mitigate freight conflicts. Trains should be running to Malton right now, instead of just trying to wait for Bramalea or farther. Richmond Hill should be running more as long as it’s technically feasible. Trains idling at Unionville for over 50 minutes during the midday have enough time to get to Mount Joy and back. The continued foot dragging on all of these seemingly simple improvements (among others) continues to be very frustrating as trackage sits empty and plans are not being implemented in a timely fashion.

I completely agree. This is ridiculous how long its taking. Especially Brampton.

^ I was curious what the Davenport Grade Separate would cost so I searched online. This FAQ from Metrolinx describes it as follows:



Guess we'll have to see if the Ford government keeps the $70m for the public realm improvements.

And this was supposed to be done by this year.

 

[TOareaFan]

I completely agree. This is ridiculous how long its taking. Especially Brampton.

The crazy thing about Brampton is that the station at Bramalea today began it's rehab/refurb......this is either the 3rd or 4th refurb in my working life (I want to say 4 but my memory only takes me back to this being the 3rd)......and still there is no agreement in place to get more trains in there.......to use a transit metaphor....we keep putting the cart before the horse.

If I lived in another part of the GTA I would be furious that all this money gets spent on a station building in Brampton when there is no indication that trains can get there.......it makes no sense.....the current building/configuration (and the one before it) can easily handle the volume of trains and people it currently serves.....until there is an indication that more trains are guaranteed to come this latest refurb is just an exercise in making it look like the Metrolinx financial largess is being evenly spread around.

 

[Allandale25]

^ I suppose it's possible that CN has agreed to allow more trains just to Bramalea but I can see why many would assume the chances are very low.

Of course there could be an agreement and it just hasn't been made public yet for some reason. Maybe the question could be asked.

 

[TOareaFan]

^ I suppose it's possible that CN has agreed to allow more trains just to Bramalea but I can see why many would assume the chances are very low.

Of course there could be an agreement and it just hasn't been made public yet for some reason. Maybe the question could be asked.

You don't think that if CN had agreed to that the former Liberal government would have been shouting it from the top of their lungs to try and prevent going 0 for 5 in the Brampton ridings in the recent election?

 

[Allandale25]

^ Yes, I see what you're saying. I'm just noting that there's no public confirmation they have a deal or don't have a deal in place for more trains to Bramalea. I would agree the likelihood of a deal is low, and that it's probably part of the negotiations where Greg Percy said he was in Montreal meeting with CN each week in a row for several weeks, as noted in the April 30th town hall.

 

[TOareaFan]

^ Yes, I see what you're saying. I'm just noting that there's no public confirmation they have a deal or don't have a deal in place for more trains to Bramalea. I would agree the likelihood of a deal is low, and that it's probably part of the negotiations where Greg Percy said he was in Montreal meeting with CN each week in a row for several weeks, as noted in the April 30th town hall.

I am sure we discussed it...but back in the fall ML told me they were at the table daily negotiating with CN (no one believed that then ).

I am just pretty sure if there was a deal in place we would have been told about it......governments don't keep things like that secret....especially governments that were in the midst of going from a majority government to potentially losing official party status

 

[Allandale25]

^ I'm going to go far out on a limb, maybe they've got an interim agreement or partial agreement just for Bramalea, but CN's required them not to confirm anything publicly until the master deal is done. At any rate, I would assume that since the work is happening on CN property, they got a construction agreement for the construction work but not the service to use the result of the construction, which I see as the concern some have: money spent on a shinny new platform but no public confirmation on when it can be used and what level of service it'll see.

 

[crs1026]

^Until the polls made it clear that Wynne didn’t have a prayer, I wondered if CN would rag the puck until just before the election, anticipating that she would hit the desperate point and sweeten the deal. But once it was obvious that she was beaten, I’m sure CN would have lost all appetite for negotiating - why deal with someone who won’t be around to deliver? I expect the polls took away ML’s credibility at the table.

I’m told that with its former masters no longer stirring the pot, ML may have a far simpler, straightforward, non-political, operationally sound version of its vision for Toronto-KW line: two tracks, 90mph, no HSR. That might be an easier ask of CN than the bypass. Now that the era of grandiose public promises is over, maybe that plan B could fly, both politically and with CN. So maybe everyone has been waiting for Wynne to leave the room. Now we just need to see how the Cons feel about all this. It’s still early days for them to really get their heads around this stuff.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

'Like' because it heralds in possibility of a whole new negotiating agenda.

It’s still early days for them to really get their heads around this stuff.

I don't think they ever will 'get their heads around it'. The concept is multitudes too large for the likes of Ford. But there's hope in that the back-room boys (and girls) are seasoned Feds who have a much better handle on how to deal with these things...and not just at the negotiating table. Even though he was a Lib, Chretien was one of the most effective PMs in recent memory due to his 'dark side'. He was a crook, a thug, a cheat and a bully. But he was ours, and very effective. (He sure stood up to Bush Jr: "A proof is a proof..." and proven exactly right)

In Harper, Mulroney et al, those qualities reside, plus the private phone numbers of all the big players. Mulroney especially has big sway. Whether that would be channeled through Carolyn or not is a good question. She certainly has the CV for it. And dual citizenship to boot. That in itself isn't as important as what it represents in terms of marshalling capital and influence on matters like this.

It won't be Ford making this happen. It will be the real powerbrokers. And they cross political lines, many in the same parties being back-stabbing enemies, but effective just the same.

The question will be how hard do we have to look to see the strings dangling the Bozo in QP? Sometimes it's so obvious, they can be seen in the dark.

 

[Dan416]

ML has so consistently downplayed the Milton Line in its plans that I have to think that the double track price tag and CP's wish list was probably high in the first place. The more recent strategy of removing all conflict between freight and passenger, even at higher overall cost, is a better long term strategy IMHO. CP has played nice towards adding peak capacity, so the most urgent need is being addressed - I disagree that the peak ridership makes this line the highest priority for implementing 2WAD. ML's priorities weren't wrong, the plan has just been terribly executed.

I'm baffled why you think that the most highly used line outside of Lakeshore isn't a high priority for 2WAD service.

People love to talk about putting transit where the ridership is, but when it comes to the Milton line, suddenly it's no longer a factor. I really do not understand it.

 

[crs1026]

I'm baffled why you think that the most highly used line outside of Lakeshore isn't a high priority for 2WAD service.

People love to talk about putting transit where the ridership is, but when it comes to the Milton line, suddenly it's no longer a factor. I really do not understand it.

Because there is only so much money, and the Unionville and Barrie lines are low hanging fruit with more potential for counterflow ridership and offering relief for 400 and 404 congestion. Pushing the Milton corridor to four tracks ahead of these projects would soak up too much of the available capital, and would put all the investment on the west side of the GTA.

I’m not saying never, I’m just saying get these other two lines done, and fix Brampton service (which has been badly bungled) first.

And, maybe in the meanwhile the stars would align to put CP on a bypass, in which case the track that CP leaves behind is all that’s needed. If we are going to build two new tracks, do it on the bypass route to get freight traffic out of the center of the city, Markham and Vaughan will scream, sure, but density along the bypass route is lighter. There are more people living within 500m of the CP line across Central Toronto than within 500m of the bypass route across Markham.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

If we are going to build two new tracks, do it on the bypass route to get freight traffic out of the center of the city, Markham and Vaughan will scream, sure, but density along the bypass route is lighter. There are more people living within 500m of the CP line across Central Toronto than within 500m of the bypass route across Markham.

I suspect once CN caves into reason for a Bypass, CP will realize 'the train is going to leave without them' and also 'want on'.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the logic, or the price-tag, the latter being the cost of doing most everything else right and most likely saving money in the long term, as well as having a much better system for all concerned, but to try and seduce CP now is almost hopeless it seems.

Gotta get the Big Boys in on this. And that's the Feds, past and present. Allow the likes of Brian Mulroney to talk a deal with the Class 1s in private, and then bring it for consideration to the Powers That Be.

 

[cbrown2009]

I do agree about adding additional tracks to Milton. Even if its just one more, it would certainly make a difference.

As far as the Barrie Line goes they have been adding more double tracked segments. The best way to stop freight conflicts on it would be the Davenport Junction separation (where the Barrie Line crosses the CP on a diamond). The last figure I heard for that project was about 130 million. Other than that there aren't many areas on that line where freight gets in the way. There are a few local freights that use parts of the line, but they tend to run during off-peak hours.

I’m referring to the constant conflicts with CN limiting the already limited 2 way service between Maple and Aurora. Although as stated earlier on this page, the Davenport Overpass as originally announced was also supposed to have been done by now...

 

[TOareaFan]

Because there is only so much money, and the Unionville and Barrie lines are low hanging fruit with more potential for counterflow ridership and offering relief for 400 and 404 congestion. Pushing the Milton corridor to four tracks ahead of these projects would soak up too much of the available capital, and would put all the investment on the west side of the GTA.

The low hanging fruit line (and you are not the first person to use it so not a shot at you) bugs me greatly.........we are constantly adding service where we can rather than where we should and it is because of the "low hanging fruit".

I just have no idea how you can believe, however, that Unionville and Barrie lines offer more opportunity for counterflow ridership than a line that goes right into and through the heart of Mississauga.......it just makes no sense....just as prioritzing 400 and 404 congestion relief over 401 congestion relief.

If GO had started with a clean slate and had available to them unlimitted access to the corridors it uses today....I have no doubt the first one to be up and running with full day service and frequent off peak service and 7 day a week service would have been Milton.....not because of the end point that is Milton.....but because it serves the heart of the largest and most economically diverse of our 905 municipalities.

If (and it is a big if) that line can get up to full service without the bypass by "simply" laying 2 more tracks in the existing corridor...that should be GO's number 1 priority over everything else they have going.....and I say this as someone who has only ridden a train in that corridor 1 time in my life (ie. it does not serve me)....it is just dripping with potential.