[sche]

Can't all the tunnelling west of Lisgar GO be replaced with just running it on street on Argentia? All you'd need is a short underpass either on or west of Ninth Line. At the very least, that area won't have any stops and could easily be widened to add dedicated bus lanes.

Putting it in the median of Derry and 10th Line would even work, with underpasses at intersections (though that would be more expensive than Argentia Rd). But yeah, the tunnel makes no sense. The only potential reason I see for tunneling it is slightly faster speeds, which definitely isn't worth the hundreds of millions of $.

 

[ARG1]

Can't all the tunnelling west of Lisgar GO be replaced with just running it on street on Argentia? All you'd need is a short underpass either on or west of Ninth Line. At the very least, that area won't have any stops and could easily be widened to add dedicated bus lanes.

Pretty sure the whole idea of this project is to avoid stuff like street running segments, and simply have one completely grade separated corridor that can easily be converted to Rail at any time.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Pretty sure the whole idea of this project is to avoid stuff like street running segments, and simply have one completely grade separated corridor that can easily be converted to Rail at any time.

Moreover this is also the sort of creeping downgrade that so badly compromises a lot of BRT projects. Once it starts it becomes very easy to point to how much the budget gains with each additional, and genuinely small in it's own terms, compromise to grade separation.

 

[sche]

Moreover this is also the sort of creeping downgrade that so badly compromises a lot of BRT projects. Once it starts it becomes very easy to point to how much the budget gains with each additional, and genuinely small in it's own terms, compromise to grade separation.

I still don't think the Lisgar tunnel is necessary - it's still possible to maintain full grade separation and decent turning radii while following a road like Argentia or Tenth Line, as long as underpasses/overpasses are provided at intersections (Like Mississauga Transitway along Eglinton, or the London DLR at Becton Park and Cypress, yes that's not BRT but the same idea works for BRT. Even elevated would work on Argentia.).

That said, I agree that BRT creep really is a big problem with many BRT projects - it's a death by a thousand cuts. That must not happen with the 407 Transitway or else it defeats the purpose of it, which was to have an express BRT across the 905.

 

[north-of-anything]

This is the western fringe of Mississauga, though. Putting in VIVA-like service here should be fine where there's comparatively low traffic. If this was at around Hurontario or McCowan, then maybe a tunnel would be called for. In this area, I think it's more important to have a route actually exist, and shaving a huge chunk off of the price tag by cutting the tunnel short at Tenth Line is a good move in my opinion. Having a dedicated right-of-way for the transitway is not negotiable, but is a twin bored tunnel really the most cost-effective solution?

 

[ARG1]

This is the western fringe of Mississauga, though. Putting in VIVA-like service here should be fine where there's comparatively low traffic. If this was at around Hurontario or McCowan, then maybe a tunnel would be called for. In this area, I think it's more important to have a route actually exist, and shaving a huge chunk off of the price tag by cutting the tunnel short at Tenth Line is a good move in my opinion. Having a dedicated right-of-way for the transitway is not negotiable, but is a twin bored tunnel really the most cost-effective solution?

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. This is the type of short-sighted mentality that causes these "death by one thousand cuts". This is how the slippery slope always goes. First you cut corners here, then someone asks "Why are you cutting corners here and not here, this corner should also be cut", and it goes on and on until the final product is just a shell of its former self. If we're going to have a grade separated expressway from one end of the 905 to the other, we should get a grade separated expressway from one end of the 905 to the other. Stop looking at this project as a busway, and start looking at it as a REM style metro service that runs on busses. The whole idea should be that we can at any point add centenary and tracks when the demand is there, with no additional construction cost, because building full grade separation then will be way more expensive then than it will be now. Like, seriously, don't even entertain this idea.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Remember that there also IS a seperate project for a Viva like system in the general vicinity on Dundas. There are very few portions of the 407 BRT that aren't paralleled by much more locally oriented projects, and this is by intention. IMO this project really needs to keep it's focus on regional express service if it is going to work properly.

 

[Cobra]

An LRT will be built on that transit corridor

 

[Coolstar]

Moaz Ahmad on Twitter: "The EA for the 400-Kennedy section of the proposed https://t.co/I0FxxHR1ES was completed a decade ago. Notice to proceed is dated Feb 28, 2011. If @fordnation @C_Mulroney @ONtransport don't move forward on the 400-Kennedy section in 2 wks another EA may have to be completed." / Twitter

 

[nfitz]

Moaz Ahmad on Twitter: "The EA for the 400-Kennedy section of the proposed https://t.co/I0FxxHR1ES was completed a decade ago. Notice to proceed is dated Feb 28, 2011. If @fordnation @C_Mulroney @ONtransport don't move forward on the 400-Kennedy section in 2 wks another EA may have to be completed." / Twitter

But we know the answer to this already. Even in the 2008 RTP, the Highway 427 Transitway was in the 15 to 25-year period. In the 2018 revision it was moved to post-2041. As long as buses can move at speed in rush hour on 407, this provides few gains.

 

[Megaton327]

But we know the answer to this already. Even in the 2008 RTP, the Highway 427 Transitway was in the 15 to 25-year period. In the 2018 revision it was moved to post-2041. As long as buses can move at speed in rush hour on 407, this provides few gains.

Yeah, this transitway has always seemed pretty crazy to me. There are FAR better uses of money out there. I don't recall ever seeing the 407 slow down below 110 in the few lanes towards the right, except for during a very severe snowstorm or accident. I don't see the transitway providing a meaningful benefit over the 407 as it stands for buses. I think the 2041 timeframe is about right.

Plus, with some companies shifting to Work From Home permanently for the post-COVID era, there will likely be a slight drop in car traffic on some of the other highways that people go to the 407 to avoid so some 407 traffic might shift back onto the 401 and other highways as a bit of capacity opens up there, and commuters on the 407 many of whom are in higher-paying jobs such as to afford the tolls are more likely to be the people in jobs that go WFH.

 

[robmausser]

But we know the answer to this already. Even in the 2008 RTP, the Highway 427 Transitway was in the 15 to 25-year period. In the 2018 revision it was moved to post-2041. As long as buses can move at speed in rush hour on 407, this provides few gains.

The only gain I saw it was to have to stop paying the owners of the 407 to use the expressway. It was shifting operating costs to capital costs (the construction of the Transitway)

 

[Bureaucromancer]

The stations would in quite a few cases be huge operational improvements in the current operations. The ea even mentions but makes no real provision for building stations piecemeal. I'd really quite like to see Uthe interchange stations built immediately with bus only ramps, never mind general highway conditions.

 

[TFC]

As an interim measure, I'm hopeful that Metrolinx could work with the 407 to implement a westbound on-ramp at Bramalea Road, providing quick 407 access to westbound buses leaving Bramalea GO. I don't believe the EA completed for this segment of the transitway identified any provisional on-ramp from Bramalea Road (entirely up to the 407 as to whether or not to add this), but I'm wondering if this could be a quick-win of sorts.

 

[ARG1]

The strange part about this whole thing is that the current government approved the EA of the western segment of the Transitway a few months ago, meaning that this is a project they're supporting and are approving of. I find it strange that after approving one segment of the transitway, they will just let another segment have their EA expire, especially when that segment runs through areas that are historically battleground districts and building higher order transit infrastructure would bring a lot of political points in these areas. My feeling is that if they don't announce the start of construction within this timeframe, either they will count on using their "ignore EA time limit clause" that they're somehow using with the Bradford Bypass, or they're planning something else, such as a REM style project between Kennedy and the 400.