[kEiThZ]

^I can't believe that Mot called this an ad hominem attack:

Honestly, sometimes you come off sounding just a bit like the right-wing's favourite caricature of a liberal. You first pound the table at the realization of an injustice somewhere else in the world, and then demand something be done by your government. When the government finally acts, you immediately find fault, claiming they are doing everything wrong, failing the people, are acting inappropriately and then finally conclude by calling them invaders and occupiers (all the while claiming that you want the original injustices dealt with). You feel free to criticize everything while never offering any realistic alternatives, that way you never have to defend a position. In the end, you state the government has failed and must be held accountable for the injustices going on in that part of the world. But had they listened to you, things would have been dandy. In the end, you were not really paying any attention to the people in that country anymore. It was the politics at home that really mattered. It always was.

Then a week later, you become aware of an injustice somewhere else in the world...


What would you have done, Mot? What would you do now? I still have not seen any effort whatsoever to address these questions.

 

[jade_lee]

The military investigates itself and determines they are not responsible for the death of these children. Man oh man am I ever glad that our military is able to clear up these matters of "collateral damage" so quickly. Badabing! Blame the Taliban! Yeah that's right, oh look over there I see a girls school being built!!!

Our Prime (opportunist) Minister Harper now goes on American television and states his read of Afghani history (he finally got around to reading some?) :

"Frankly, we are not going to ever defeat the insurgency," Mr. Harper told CNN, pointing to the long history of Afghan insurgencies successfully driving out invaders, including the Soviets in the 1980s and the British a century earlier.

"[From] my reading of Afghanistan history, it's probably had an insurgency forever, of some kind," Mr. Harper said."

The word "Probably" suggest that Harper still insists on covering his ass or perhaps his analysis is just a wishy washy one similar to Hillier's which is equally as wishy washy but the opposite view.

To think that our PM engages in straight tawkin with the Americans while on his visit there but back home his message is unclear tells me that his government have satisfied their Afghani mission goal, that is to satisfy the combat wishes of the American government.

BTW the mission's goals are not set by the soldiers but by the public in a democracy. The Canadian public is having a difficult time making up their minds about this occupation in Afghanistan because the message about whats going on over there keeps changing. Time to get the hell out of there. The military doesn't make decisions to continue engaging in a war that all Canadians pay for, I elect politicians for that and I'm not happy with their rhetoric of late!

 

[Mot]

Mot:

That's enough - try not to use ignore as part of your argument? If you want to ignore, that's fine - but try not to make drama out of it and name names?

re: Harper

I think all that talk is about an exit strategy - especially knowing continued involvement in Afghanistan probably won't be politically palatable to Canadians (much less so when the economy is in the doldrums). You would not have heard him say that in opposition, or even in his early years in power - when he was still using his alpha male posturing re: "strong leadership".

AoD

Sure Alvin I will just as soon as you call them out on ad hominem attacks. I think it's time to stay good bye to UT. This is ridiculous. I have been trying to stick to the damn subject throughout this thread and others. I get back responses all about Mot, made up bullshit about my positions and not once has a mod done a thing about it.

 

[urbandreamer]

^I think y'all need a f2f meeting. While chances are high you'll just agree to disagree, you may just become best buddies....

Now the only thing that I'm wondering about Keithz, is he says he works in Ottawa for the military, yet he seems to spend the majority of his time on UT: what's wrong with the gov't workers' work ethic these days?

 

[Hydrogen]

The military investigates itself and determines they are not responsible for the death of these children. Man oh man am I ever glad that our military is able to clear up these matters of "collateral damage" so quickly. Badabing! Blame the Taliban! Yeah that's right, oh look over there I see a girls school being built!!!

I guess from your cynical vantage point it could only be the military that is to blame. I have doubts that any evidence would ever satisfy you - except for that supplied by the Taliban. But I suspect that they don't really give a shit either way.

 

[kEiThZ]

^
Now the only thing that I'm wondering about Keithz, is he says he works in Ottawa for the military, yet he seems to spend the majority of his time on UT: what's wrong with the gov't workers' work ethic these days?

1) I was raised in Toronto. Went to university there. Have all my family there. My gf lives there. And most of my friends live there.
2) Largely because of #1, I spend more than half my weekends and most of my leave time in Toronto. And I have also sought postings closer to home.
3) My job has varied hours which does allow me to post at all sorts of odd hours.
4) I do not use my employer's time to up my UT post count. I do that on my free time which because of #1 I have more off since ending up a little further away from where my friends and family are clustered.

Any other questions about why I am on UT or my integrity as an employee?

 

[Hydrogen]

Just don't let your gf know she came in at #4.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think it's time to stay good bye to UT. This is ridiculous. I have been trying to stick to the damn subject throughout this thread and others. I get back responses all about Mot, made up bullshit about my positions and not once has a mod done a thing about it.

Somebody should tell him that it's just a forum.....and because it's just a forum he or anybody else won't really be missed.

 

[kEiThZ]

The military investigates itself and determines they are not responsible for the death of these children. Man oh man am I ever glad that our military is able to clear up these matters of "collateral damage" so quickly. Badabing! Blame the Taliban! Yeah that's right, oh look over there I see a girls school being built!!!

You do know that the NIS is outside of the military's chain of command right?

 

[jade_lee]

Same culture, enough said.

I keep reading about the "tribes" of Afghanistan. They include the Taliban. Here in North America we don't have tribes per say but instead we have races from all over the world who have settled here, call themselves Canadians, so our tribes are racial and we also have "tribal" problems.
We sure like to frame concepts to max out their complexity but in the end people just have to learn to accept differences and get over their own personal superiority complexes. To suggest that even the genders in our society are treated fairly is ridiculous......War will not make this a better world, understanding differeneces will. We have to "sell" the idea that acceptance makes a better environment and stop insisting that elections magically create democracies when in fact we all know money buys our votes! And the voting public differs dramatically from the general public, who could not care less about voting.
Finally our very own Harper is voicing the Obama Mantra. Sadly I think our two Countries have different agendas. 2011 could not come any sooner but I do agree that as our troops head home our cash should continue to flow towards the Afghani people because the damage to their country must be repaired. We contributed to it.

 

[Tewder]

I keep reading about the "tribes" of Afghanistan. They include the Taliban. Here in North America we don't have tribes per say but instead we have races from all over the world who have settled here, call themselves Canadians, so our tribes are racial and we also have "tribal" problems.

We have a body of laws that form a social contract according to which we all agree to live. That is the entry requirement for being 'Canadian' no matter what cultural 'tribe' you feel you belong to. This is not the situation in Afghanistan no matter how you like to spin it. I can't believe this even needs to be pointed out!?

We sure like to frame concepts to max out their complexity but in the end people just have to learn to accept differences and get over their own personal superiority complexes. To suggest that even the genders in our society are treated fairly is ridiculous......War will not make this a better world, understanding differeneces will. We have to "sell" the idea that acceptance makes a better environment and stop insisting that elections magically create democracies when in fact we all know money buys our votes! And the voting public differs dramatically from the general public, who could not care less about voting.

Democracy has never been won peacefully. Never. The Afghani people are welcoming of democracy. It is the Taliban you will have to convince, but I think you will face an uphill battle there though, and your head would no doubt be off of your shoulders before you'd get to deliver the flowery message that we should all just love each other and get along...

You're correct though that 'imposing' democracy doesn't necessarily work when people know that the Taliban is breathing down their neck ready to pounce and take back power at the first opportunity, and all the more so in the face of the weak resolve of the likes of you who claim to 'care' about the Afghani people but are quick to abandon them to fare as they will under the domination of whatever ruling warlord manages to wrestle control. Okay by you though, right? It is the West that is the invading bully, trying to impose its 'dirty' and flawed ideals of democracy on subjects that rightly belong under the control of the Taliban

Finally our very own Harper is voicing the Obama Mantra. Sadly I think our two Countries have different agendas. 2011 could not come any sooner but I do agree that as our troops head home our cash should continue to flow towards the Afghani people because the damage to their country must be repaired. We contributed to it.

That is a different issue. At the end of day we are in Afghanistan because it suits our objectives to be there. A stabilized Afghanistan is better for us than a Taliban-led one that harbours terrorist groups. This is also the reason for Obama's change of policy. To pull out of Afghanistan and leave it to the Taliban but send money across would be silly as the people will never get those funds. Abandoning them now will be abandoning them in every respect.

 

[Admiral Beez]

We've now lost 111 soldiers in Afghanistan. Most Canadians are not aware that of our total 60,000 personnel in the Canadian forces, only about 3,500 are combat infantry. The rest are sailors, pilots, cooks, logistics, support, etc, etc...and of course administration.

So, out of 3,500 troops we've lost 111. That's over 3% dead. I imagine by 2011 we'll have exceed the 5% rate for this mission.

 

[Hydrogen]

We have a body of laws that form a social contract according to which we all agree to live. That is the entry requirement for being 'Canadian' no matter what cultural 'tribe' you feel you belong to. This is not the situation in Afghanistan no matter how you like to spin it. I can't believe this even needs to be pointed out!?

Well said!

So, out of 3,500 troops we've lost 111. That's over 3% dead. I imagine by 2011 we'll have exceed the 5% rate for this mission.

Those won't all be the same 3,500 troops over a ten year period.

 

[Whoaccio]

Who says we aren't making progress? The Taliban is using the JesusPhone, what more can you possibly want? Apple Products are right up there on the lists of yuppie-fication, I predict that gastro-bars and organic microbreweries will soon follow.

JASON STRAZIUSO

Associated Press

March 3, 2009 at 3:48 PM EST

KABUL — Mullah Abdul Salaam Zaeef is a former Taliban ambassador to Pakistan. He spent almost four years in Guantanamo. He wears a black turban, has a thick beard — and is never without his Apple iPhone.

The ultra-conservative Taliban banned modern technology like the Internet and TV during its 1996-2001 rule, but those items have boomed in Afghanistan since the regime's 2001 ouster, helping to bring the country into the 21st century.

Mr. Zaeef, who reconciled with the Afghan government after being released from U.S. custody, says he uses his iPhone to surf the Internet and find difficult locations, employing the built-in GPS. He even checks his bank account balance online.

“It's easy and modern and I love it,†Mr. Zaeef said as he pinched and pulled his fingers across the iPhone's touch screen last week. “This is necessary in the world today. People want to progress.â€

Beyond making life easier, some say the country's embrace of technology could help break the cycle of 30 years of relentless warfare. It puts at the tip of a finger many things that were strictly outlawed by Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar — music, movies, pictures of people and games like chess.

Young Afghans see the world differently from older Afghans because of their use of the Internet and mobile phones, and their participation in sports, said Shukria Barakzai, a female lawmaker and former newspaper editor.

Afghanistan's youth are not caught up in “the old circle of war,†she said. “They are engaging with the rest of the world. That's why technology is so important for Afghanistan.â€

As an example she uses the popular television show Afghan Star, a version of the American Idol-style singing contest, which draws millions of viewers each week, both young and old. Viewers vote for a winner by text messaging, helping to promote democratic practices, she said.

Eight years ago Afghanistan had only a few hundred cellphone users, mostly members of the Taliban government. Today it has more than 8 million, meaning roughly one in four Afghans uses a mobile phone, according to government figures.

NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said in a speech earlier this year that Afghanistan was “in the Middle Ages†when the Taliban was toppled. Today, he said, half the country is at peace and access to education and health care are up 10-fold.

“When I saw an Afghan fellow pull out his Apple iPhone in Kabul, while I was talking on my 5-year-old NATO mobile, I saw another symbol of progress,†he said of a recent trip to Afghanistan.

The Afghan capital has one gleaming mall, with glass elevators and escalators and a rare European-style coffee shop. Electronic stores stocked with GPS units, Sony PlayStations, flat screen TVs and iPods fill the shopping centre.

Faridullah, the owner of an electronics store who like many Afghans goes by one name, said he sells about four iPhones a month to wealthy Afghans. The price in Kabul has dropped from $1,100 one month ago to about $800 today, he said.

“The country is really progressing now. Nine years ago the country didn't know about mobile phones. We can't compare today to nine years ago,†he said. “It's like a custom now in Afghanistan that even if someone doesn't have enough money to eat he'll still carry an expensive cellphone.â€

The nation's leading mobile phone company, Roshan, added one million customers between June and early February, when it surpassed three million users. Roshan offers mobile banking services so users can send money to others through their phones, and it began offering Blackberry service in August, the first company in Afghanistan to do so.

Still, the average annual income in Afghanistan is just $800, so shop owners must target the ultra-wealthy and foreigners. Most Afghans never have heard of an iPhone, and Roshan reaches only 56 per cent of the population.

“It's still pretty expensive,†Jawid, the owner of another electronics store, said of iPhones and other modern gadgets. “The problem is the economy, otherwise people are very interested in the new technologies.â€

Many shops in Kabul sell a Chinese-made iPhone copy that shop owners say can do most things a real iPhone can. The fake sells for $300.

Mr. Zaeef, the former Taliban official, said he has always been interested in technology despite his militant links. He used a laptop and satellite phone to access the Internet in the late 1990s, and now he surfs the Web an hour a day, he said.

Mr. Zaeef said he tried to persuade top Taliban officials to let Afghans have more access to modern electronics in the late 1990s, and he noted that the Taliban itself now embraces technology. Militants use remote control devices to set off roadside bombs, and they produce high-quality videos of attacks that they post on militant websites.

The Taliban movement is highly fractured and is essentially a loose knitting of commanders who wield ultimate authority in their regions. As a result, some commanders have relaxed strict social rules against technology and now allow TVs and music. But others have ripped down satellites from homes and thrown out TVs from village barber shops and tea houses.

“All the time with the technology I tried to get them to investigate about the negative and the positive. I thought the positive outweighed the negative,†he said. “I trie, but unfortunately I was not successful.â€

 

[jade_lee]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...04.wAbdelrazik0305/BNStory/International/home

Is this the rule of law here you are talking about?


Tasers used by our RCMP that killed a man for his attack by a stapler- that never happened, guards assisting a suicide in a prison because the kid tried too many times to kill herself and the guards were following orders?

It's time we clean up our own backyard before we even attempt to clean up the mess in countries we know little about it seems.

I can't believe you believe our society is so cleansed of vile antisocial behaviour you claim to exists uniquely in Afghanistan which legitimizes our troops occupation there.