If an election was held today, who would you vote for?
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- Thread starter Surrealplaces
- Start date
Cowtown
Senior Member
I voted NDP. I would have picked anyone other than NDP a year ago, but I can't say that Notley has done a bad job really. That and I just can't see myself voting for the UCP with a guy like Kenney at the helm.
Oddball
Senior Member
Never the NDP. They raised the cost of doing business, upped the regulative burden and generally mismanaged the public purse. They're done an incredible number on our power system. Their supposed support for pipeline development has left most of the major projects dead in the water. They've been overly generous with unions and public employees. They've strengthened the bureaucracy in healthcare, without strengthening the oversight. They favour Edmonton over Calgary. And for fuck's sake, they've made beer and gasoline deliberately more expensive. Top that off with a questionable stance on sales taxes and LCBO style government distribution of Marijuana. They're an affront to everything that makes our province successful. There's plenty of room in eastern Canada if you want an economy powered by wishful thinking. You should see the hydro bills that go along with it. Please go enjoy your generally lower standard of living there and don't drag the rest of us down with you.
Suffice it to say that there's a reason only Kathleen Wynne is a less popular premier.
Since coming of age, I've only ever voted Wildrose because the PCs were nearly as bad in a lot of ways (and is someways worse, see: corruption), but the NDP have savaged our already battered province. The sooner these four miserable years are relegated to the dumpster of history, the sooner we can begin the long job of digging out. I hope the next government's ethos is typified by pointy helmets and battle axes, because Edmonton needs to be burnt to the ground. If it's never refounded, we'd make due.
I am happy to see the Alberta Party making some strides through. They're showing a little better in a few provincial polls and in this very unscientific survey here. Alberta's lack of a credible middle option is in large part why we ended up with so many years of miserable PC politics and why we're stuck with the NDP now. They should merge with the provincial Liberals and put that brand out to pasture where it belongs. If the election after next were to be a battle between the AP and the UPC, that would be one to take an interest in.
Suffice it to say that there's a reason only Kathleen Wynne is a less popular premier.
Since coming of age, I've only ever voted Wildrose because the PCs were nearly as bad in a lot of ways (and is someways worse, see: corruption), but the NDP have savaged our already battered province. The sooner these four miserable years are relegated to the dumpster of history, the sooner we can begin the long job of digging out. I hope the next government's ethos is typified by pointy helmets and battle axes, because Edmonton needs to be burnt to the ground. If it's never refounded, we'd make due.
I am happy to see the Alberta Party making some strides through. They're showing a little better in a few provincial polls and in this very unscientific survey here. Alberta's lack of a credible middle option is in large part why we ended up with so many years of miserable PC politics and why we're stuck with the NDP now. They should merge with the provincial Liberals and put that brand out to pasture where it belongs. If the election after next were to be a battle between the AP and the UPC, that would be one to take an interest in.
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darwink
Senior Member
Most of those points are myths not facts, beyond changes to the tax system. Every single one of these points could be leveled against the PCs post ~1997.
Cowtown
Senior Member
I haven't really followed all the economic stuff from the NDP very closely, but I know that I can't in good conscience vote for UCP based on their dealing of LGBT issues.
Cowtown
Senior Member
I don't have any stats to back this up, but I remember seeing a graph showing that the public sector had grown at a faster rate than when the PCs were in power.
I recall seeing something like that on Twitter, but iirc, it was from the Manning Centre so it may have been skewed in one direction.
Oddball
Senior Member
Ugh, this is why I hate talking politics. It quickly devolves into a number of conversations that revolve around ones in some cases deeply help points of view. All the discourse is bound to generate is friction. Especially on the internet where a lack of empathy and projected tone turn every little disagreement into a shrieking match doomed for reducto-ad-hitlerum. However, since I clearly represent a minority of posters on the site I'm going to stand my ground. I just hope the bad blood can at least be restricted to the Politics section sandbox and that none of the disagreements voiced here-in become personal. I like this site too much.
First of all many of my criticisms do hold against the PCs. "Since I came of age" applies to every election since 2008. The latter Klein years were rudderless and NDP rule effectively started under Stelmach. The Redford years were shameful to say the least. She is easily the worst premier of my lifetime and possibly the worst one in the province's history. However, there is also no denying that the NDP have kept on and intensified the same fiscal course set on the past few years.
Total Government Expenses and Program Expenses relative to GDP in 2016-17 are the highest since 1993-1994. Most of the intervening time they in a relatively stable band. This year is a sharp increase just and not following a trend set by previous governments. Alberta's per capita program expenses are 3rd highest in the country behind Saskatchewan and Newfoundland. Alberta is carrying net debt for the first time since 1998-1999. This is the continuation of a trend set by latter PC governments, but has accelerated under the NDP. We're set to have nearly as much debt as BC by 2019-20, with the key difference that we'll have built that debt load in only 5 short years. Alberta is also running the second highest negative budget balance relative to GDP in the country, behind only Newfoundland. source
On pipelines, the NDP took a decidedly different strategy. One that involved going along with opponents in the hope of assuaging their concerns. It didn't work. It certainly wasn't doomed from the outset. A lot of industry observers thought that a change of tack might be good. It was a gamble that ultimately failed. Of the pipeline proposals in place when the NDP entred office only the Kinder Morgan TransMountain pipeline is still standing and it's on shaky ground. It is very clear that the conciliation strategy has found no traction.
On the cost of doing business, they've raised corporate taxes, they're revising labour law to favour unions, they've raised the minimum wage and they're working on raising the price of electricity (see below). The regulatory issues are a little beyond my scope and are probably mostly a federal issue, so if you want to call me out here, I'll eat some crow but there's no way that the provinces carbon pricing plan hasn't compounded and increased costs of business. Anecdotally, I will say government interference has increased at my company. This is my opinion not that of my company. I cannot and will not say anything about my employer.
The cost of gas increasing is no myth.
Ontario and Australia have been horribly damaged by this type of wishful thinking. In Ontario, the green shift saw the cost of power rise nearly 10% per year from 2008 to 2016. While generating wind power at a loss that they were forced to sell to US markets at a loss because it wasn't even being generated when Ontario consumers could use it. They will now have to purchase much of their power from Quebec, because their system is so broken. The only reason that changed is because the province has begun heavily subsidizing people's power bills in a manner that amounts to bribing voters with their own money. Australia has the highest electricity prices in the world. Alberta is heading right down the same road with ludicrous 30% renewal power production targets and coal phase out.
The beer thing is no myth. The argument here is that out of province tariffs were increased to try to stimulate the growth of the brewing industry at home. This is straight up protectionism. It usually leads to higher prices and less choice. I like to drink local beer, but I do so by choice not by compulsion. Protectionism is largely the reason we have more expensive telecommunications, flights, dairy and poultry in Canada.
The marijuana thing is no myth either. The AUPE does want to see LCBO style distribution. This isn't government policy, but this is a very closely aligned group which has clout with the party. I didn't say they were going to do it, but I did say their stance was questionable. I think there's grounds to believe that.
The sales tax is also reasonable speculation. She has said she won't do it with this mandate, but hasn't ruled out the next one. source
Kathleen Wynn's unpopularity is not a myth. Neither is Rachel Notley's. Apologies for excluding NL premier Dwight Ball. He's also very unpopular.
In sum. Not myths. I fucking hate the NDP. And to anyone who argues against by saying we're "getting in line with the rest of Canada." I say, The RoC sucks. We can and should be better in every way.
First of all many of my criticisms do hold against the PCs. "Since I came of age" applies to every election since 2008. The latter Klein years were rudderless and NDP rule effectively started under Stelmach. The Redford years were shameful to say the least. She is easily the worst premier of my lifetime and possibly the worst one in the province's history. However, there is also no denying that the NDP have kept on and intensified the same fiscal course set on the past few years.
Total Government Expenses and Program Expenses relative to GDP in 2016-17 are the highest since 1993-1994. Most of the intervening time they in a relatively stable band. This year is a sharp increase just and not following a trend set by previous governments. Alberta's per capita program expenses are 3rd highest in the country behind Saskatchewan and Newfoundland. Alberta is carrying net debt for the first time since 1998-1999. This is the continuation of a trend set by latter PC governments, but has accelerated under the NDP. We're set to have nearly as much debt as BC by 2019-20, with the key difference that we'll have built that debt load in only 5 short years. Alberta is also running the second highest negative budget balance relative to GDP in the country, behind only Newfoundland. source
On pipelines, the NDP took a decidedly different strategy. One that involved going along with opponents in the hope of assuaging their concerns. It didn't work. It certainly wasn't doomed from the outset. A lot of industry observers thought that a change of tack might be good. It was a gamble that ultimately failed. Of the pipeline proposals in place when the NDP entred office only the Kinder Morgan TransMountain pipeline is still standing and it's on shaky ground. It is very clear that the conciliation strategy has found no traction.
On the cost of doing business, they've raised corporate taxes, they're revising labour law to favour unions, they've raised the minimum wage and they're working on raising the price of electricity (see below). The regulatory issues are a little beyond my scope and are probably mostly a federal issue, so if you want to call me out here, I'll eat some crow but there's no way that the provinces carbon pricing plan hasn't compounded and increased costs of business. Anecdotally, I will say government interference has increased at my company. This is my opinion not that of my company. I cannot and will not say anything about my employer.
The cost of gas increasing is no myth.
Ontario and Australia have been horribly damaged by this type of wishful thinking. In Ontario, the green shift saw the cost of power rise nearly 10% per year from 2008 to 2016. While generating wind power at a loss that they were forced to sell to US markets at a loss because it wasn't even being generated when Ontario consumers could use it. They will now have to purchase much of their power from Quebec, because their system is so broken. The only reason that changed is because the province has begun heavily subsidizing people's power bills in a manner that amounts to bribing voters with their own money. Australia has the highest electricity prices in the world. Alberta is heading right down the same road with ludicrous 30% renewal power production targets and coal phase out.
The beer thing is no myth. The argument here is that out of province tariffs were increased to try to stimulate the growth of the brewing industry at home. This is straight up protectionism. It usually leads to higher prices and less choice. I like to drink local beer, but I do so by choice not by compulsion. Protectionism is largely the reason we have more expensive telecommunications, flights, dairy and poultry in Canada.
The marijuana thing is no myth either. The AUPE does want to see LCBO style distribution. This isn't government policy, but this is a very closely aligned group which has clout with the party. I didn't say they were going to do it, but I did say their stance was questionable. I think there's grounds to believe that.
The sales tax is also reasonable speculation. She has said she won't do it with this mandate, but hasn't ruled out the next one. source
Kathleen Wynn's unpopularity is not a myth. Neither is Rachel Notley's. Apologies for excluding NL premier Dwight Ball. He's also very unpopular.
In sum. Not myths. I fucking hate the NDP. And to anyone who argues against by saying we're "getting in line with the rest of Canada." I say, The RoC sucks. We can and should be better in every way.
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Habanero
Active Member
Tell us how you really feel Oddball 
I'm voting UCP also, though I don't mind some of of the NDP's moves. I think they are too idealistic on the energy side of things.
Also worth noting, from what I saw on SSP, the politics section turned into a shit show, but it seemed to stay only in the politics section....although the other threads there have turned into a shit show also, it's more to do with the members than the subject. I think we're okay here though, most people seem sensible on this site.
I'm voting UCP also, though I don't mind some of of the NDP's moves. I think they are too idealistic on the energy side of things.Also worth noting, from what I saw on SSP, the politics section turned into a shit show, but it seemed to stay only in the politics section....although the other threads there have turned into a shit show also, it's more to do with the members than the subject. I think we're okay here though, most people seem sensible on this site.
darwink
Senior Member
Spending spiking as % of GDP? that wouldn't have something to do with GDP shrinking now would it?
You can propose 2008 level of taxes (when they were lowest, under Stelmach's "rudderless and NDP rule") without similar revenues for sure. Just don't expect 2008 levels of services.
You can propose 2008 level of taxes (when they were lowest, under Stelmach's "rudderless and NDP rule") without similar revenues for sure. Just don't expect 2008 levels of services.
Oddball
Senior Member
I am of the opinion that spending should have decreased service consequences and all.
Also, you deliberately misquoted me. I said the latter years of Klein were rudderless. As for Stelmach, I was expressing an opinion on the quality of his tenure. I think a lot of people remember his royalty review and would compare that sort of behaviour to the nationalizing tendencies of social democrats.
Also, you deliberately misquoted me. I said the latter years of Klein were rudderless. As for Stelmach, I was expressing an opinion on the quality of his tenure. I think a lot of people remember his royalty review and would compare that sort of behaviour to the nationalizing tendencies of social democrats.
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Silence&Motion
Senior Member
Wow! It may surprise you to know that people are doing pretty well in other parts of Canada. Business are running and the economy is humming along pretty well with or without wishful thinking. Yes the "east" has to deal with the legacy of deindustrialization and the destruction of other industries but it's not like that could have been prevented by lower corporate taxes or harsher anti-union policies. Those also won't protect Alberta from the decline of the carbon economy.
Also, not everyone thinks that lowering their tax and energy bills to the lowest possible level is the highest priority in their lives. Some people are more interested in investing in health care, education, the environment, etc. I'd be willing to pay much, much higher energy costs if Alberta would eliminate its coal plants.
I'm also not sure why it's such a sign of failure that Ontario buys hydroelectrical energy from Quebec. If buying hydroelectricity from BC can help Alberta get off coal, it should do that as well. There's no reason that provinces should have to be energy self-sufficient.
Oddball
Senior Member
And here's where we get into "deeply held points of view." You have your right to your opinions and I mine. We simply don't share overlapping priorities. Apart from healthcare I don't think those other priorities matter much. And as such, I have no special faith in the abilities of politicians or bureaucrats to accomplish the occasionally well intentioned goals they set out to accomplish. The less of my money and the less of my life that gets devoted to government, the better.
Canada is a pretty good country, but it's not the standard to which I think Alberta should hold itself. Canada is self-righteous and uncompetative, naive about it's place in the world and unwilling to do what it takes to even maintain it's own sovereignty.
Canada is a pretty good country, but it's not the standard to which I think Alberta should hold itself. Canada is self-righteous and uncompetative, naive about it's place in the world and unwilling to do what it takes to even maintain it's own sovereignty.
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MichaelS
Senior Member
Do you take advantage of services like Bullfrog Power for your home/business?
https://www.bullfrogpower.com/
Just curious. These options do exist for people who would be willing to spend more on power bills, if it meant greener energy. Whether it is necessary for the government to mandate that decision is entirely dependent upon your point of view, but if they aren't mandating it, nothing prevents you from still pursuing that ideology on your own.
In terms of who I would vote for, way to early to tell. Plus, while I enjoy talking politics on occasion, lately it seems like I enjoy it less and less as it has become much more polarizing. As such, best to ignore it until campaign time, cast your vote, and then just go on with your life best you can.
darwink
Senior Member
While individual environmental action is largely ideological, collective action is like insurance. Pay a certain amount to reduce the likelihood of a worse version of an uncertain outcome. It is a pretty small effect on the economy and modelling says the future savings will be rather large. In Alberta households where this may have caused energy poverty get a rebate, and the rest of us go on with our lives. As the tax ramps up, delivering more of it back through the tax system makes sense - increased rebates for households, and lower income taxes for all.
Now how the government has decided to spend the non-rebated part of the carbon tax you can debate for sure. BC gives near 100% back through the tax system.
But unless you don't think climate change is an issue, which is legitimate but places you outside of the political mainstream, or you think taxes and the market are less effective than the government imposing solutions at reducing environmental harm (long since shown to be wrong), what is the argument? Is it solely "I don't like paying taxes, and this problem should have a different way of solving it that costs zero dollars"?
Now how the government has decided to spend the non-rebated part of the carbon tax you can debate for sure. BC gives near 100% back through the tax system.
But unless you don't think climate change is an issue, which is legitimate but places you outside of the political mainstream, or you think taxes and the market are less effective than the government imposing solutions at reducing environmental harm (long since shown to be wrong), what is the argument? Is it solely "I don't like paying taxes, and this problem should have a different way of solving it that costs zero dollars"?