[js97]

Politics aside.

do you really think Toronto's budget is truly sustainable?


Operating Budget has grown from 6.5 B to 9.68 Billion in 4 years (3.18 B or 48% growth)

Downloading happened back in late 90's.... So this is all this administration....


politics aside... I'm just curious as some of the opinions...

 

[SimonP]

Your figures are a bit off. The 2006 budget was 7.6 billion. 2010 is 9.2 billion.

 

[Paleo]

Your figures are a bit off. The 2006 budget was 7.6 billion. 2010 is 9.2 billion.

But I wanted to be indignant and angry!

 

[GraphicMatt]

This thread certainly is an object.

Now cue: an intelligent person who points out that a huge part of the municipal budget goes to provincially-mandated services and arbitrated wage settlements (police, transit).

Counter with: some trivial point about expensive gardeners or whatever.

 

[CityPainter]

The city is millions in debt and transit is underfunded by billions, but don't worry: if you elect Rob Ford for mayor, he'll bring his own pens to work and it will all balance out.

 

[SimonP]

Of that $9.2 billion, a grand total of $19 million gets spent on city council. If Rob Ford implements his sweeping cuts and slices that budget in half, he will have cut spending by a whopping 0.1%.

It's funny to hear right wingers going on about "private sector style solutions." In any private company with a budget the size of Toronto's the single guy at the top would be bringing home $19 million.

 

[kettal]

What is the fastest growing department in spending? I do believe it is Police Services.

 

[lead82]

That's right. The police budget takes up a huge chunk with cops doing more OT. The public wants more police even though crime rates are dropping. If we want to save some money, cut the police budget by 10% .

 

[waterloowarrior]

Year / Operating Budget (billions)
2004 6.6
2005 7.1
2006 7.6
2007 7.8
2008 8.2
2009 8.7
2010 9.2


The part of the budget funded through property taxes
2004 - $2.915B
2010 - $3.534B

 

[kettal]

Thanks waterloo.

Can anybody shed some light on the effect stimulus programs has on the 2009 & 2010 budget? I presume that would account for much of the growth in these years, but perhaps they only affect the capital budget, not operational.

 

[Glen]

The final tally of spending is not in yet. There are commitments in place that have not been accounted for. Residents of Toronto have not felt the full effect of the current spending. Recall that city staff has warned that .........

"Without asset sales or a significant increase in provincial funding, the tax bill could leap by about 12.5% in 2011, 11% in 2012, 9.75% in 2013 and 8.25% in 2014, city staff told the executive committee "

 

[SimonP]

Looking at the numbers, the largest increase has been to the TTC. Its operating subsidy has gone from about $70 million to $400 million. This is not money from property taxes, rather it is coming from the provincial commitment to reduce the TTC's fare recovery ratio.

The dire double digit numbers quoted by Glen only occur if this funding vanishes, which is unlikely. McGuinty has promised to continue this funding, and even to increase it. I could see a Hudak government following Mike Harris and pulling much of this money. If that does happen in 2012 the city will have to make a painful choice between TTC cuts and tax increases. I would be very surprised to see even Hudak cut all of it, so the most dire warnings are very unlikely.

The part of the budget funded through property taxes
2004 - $2.915B
2010 - $3.534B

So property taxes under Miller have gone up about 3.5% per year. Inflation during that period has been about 2%, so over half the increase is accounted for by that. Are those just the residential taxes? If so another large chunk would be accounted for by the effort to rebalance commercial and residential rates.

During that period the average price of a home in Toronto went up 24%. If property taxes were charged in the same way as income and sales taxes, we would all be celebrating a tax decrease during this period.

 

[Glen]

Looking at the numbers, the largest increase has been to the TTC. Its operating subsidy has gone from about $70 million to $400 million. This is not money from property taxes, rather it is coming from the provincial commitment to reduce the TTC's fare recovery ratio.

Nope. The operating subsidy is just that, a subsidy. Take the TTC's operating expenses less fare revenue (and other sundry income) and the shortfall gets moved over the the operating budget.

The dire double digit numbers quoted by Glen only occur if this funding vanishes,

Again, wrong. The figures from city staff are based on current transfer levels.

So property taxes under Miller have gone up about 3.5% per year. Inflation during that period has been about 2%, so over half the increase is accounted for by that.

Do not use property taxes as a proxy for spending. It excludes revenue from the VRT, LTT and the funds raided from the reserves.

 

[eddiek]

To understand the budget, you have to see what it is and where the revenue come from.
see page 11 and 12 of the link to the pdf.

http://www.toronto.ca/budget2010/pdf/op2010_presentation_council_april15.pdf

 

[SimonP]

Nope. The operating subsidy is just that, a subsidy. Take the TTC's operating expenses less fare revenue (and other sundry income) and the shortfall gets moved over the the operating budget.

It is part of the operating budget, but the province contributes $1.9 billion to that budget. Part of that money goes to covering the TTC shortfall. Thus it is part of the budget, but not a portion paid directly by Toronto taxpayers.

Again, wrong. The figures from city staff are based on current transfer levels.

Do you have a reference for that? The problem with the provincial funding is that it is not guaranteed. Each year the province decides how much it will send to Toronto. McGuinty has promised that he will keep increasing funding until the TTC fare recovery ratio is down to 50%, but there is no certainty beyond the promise that the money will keep flowing. I believe the city budgeting numbers quoted in the Sun are based on no such extra money from the province.