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The private sector could certainly build expensive, limited-stop commuter-oriented transit effectively, which would make those who can afford it very happy (maybe), but it sure would be a straight screw-you to those who can barely afford TTC fares as is. Nevermind those who rely on transit for more than getting to work every day.

You know, I'm sensing a lot of parallels to the healthcare debate here.

Like people talking about worse case scenarios (eg the US healthcare system) rather than looking at European and Asian systems that work better than the way we do things. It's strange that social democratic countries are more open to private involvement (in both healthcare and transit) than a more "capitalist"/ right wing/low tax country like Canada. And like healthcare the debate shouldn't be government monopoly vs poorly regulated private system, there is a wide range of options in between.
 
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Here's an old ad from General Electric (from seattletransitblog.com):

transit-ad-1940s.jpg





Interesting that the ad mentions 1.72 occupants per automobile. Today, it is more like 1.1 occupants per automobile. In other words, traffic congestion has gotten worse.
 
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Like people talking about worse case scenarios (eg the US healthcare system) rather than looking at European and Asian systems that work better than the way we do things. It's strange that social democratic countries are more open to private involvement (in both healthcare and transit) than a more "capitalist"/ right wing/low tax country like Canada. And like healthcare the debate shouldn't be government monopoly vs poorly regulated private system, there is a wide range of options in between.

Your point is well-taken, and I'm not against private operation of lines as long as it's a good deal for riders, but I'm sick of this "God, the TTC is so stupid, just PRIVATIZE and everything will be perfect!" attitude. It's not magic.
 
GraphicMatt - Embrace this! This competition is what we need in the GTA. Now you can either pay:

a) $3.00 dollars and take the TTC - 1 hour and 15 minutes to get to Union
b) $55.00 and take a cab - which tons of people currently do
b) $22.00 and get to Union in 22 minutes by rail - much cheaper than a cab!

That's what's makes competition great! Because cabs and this new train are profit oriented, they will cater to customers.

If the cab or train option is too expensive, less people take it, and profits go down.

After this train starts operation, I bet you cab rates will go down and will have to stop gouging airport patrons - which will benefit everyone! This private train is definitely a step in the right direction in the GTA.

Thank you. Increased competition is always a mutual sum gain. I say if PPP took control of transit operation along Eglinton, Kingston Rd, the DRL and the northern 416 busway that I've been opining about in the other thread - which are bound to be the most profitable routes for investors - we, the transit using public, would be able to benefit from true crosstown commutes sooner rather than later. The fact they're in it to turn a profit heightens their incentive to make the transit attractive, fast and reliable. A flat-rate time based fare structure or fare by distance schema could be used. The TTC could then have freed up monies with which to invest more into repairing its deteriorating infrastructure via opening up some of its corridors to alternate service providers.
 
Your point is well-taken, and I'm not against private operation of lines as long as it's a good deal for riders, but I'm sick of this "God, the TTC is so stupid, just PRIVATIZE and everything will be perfect!" attitude. It's not magic.

Do you think Vancouver's Canda Line built courtesy of PPP which is fully grade-separated and connects its Int'l airport to its downtown core is not a good deal for riders? All we're asking for is a similar solution for Toronto. A DRL from Pearson to Don Mills/Eglinton is vitally needed and something we really cannot afford to allow the TTC to screw up. Private investors know how to cut costs, aren't slaves to overpowered union and can keep to deadlines. Remember the Canada Line was operational several months ahead of schedule. The St Clair streetcar reconstruction project has taken five years. I am sick of this "God, the TTC made a mistake, everyone makes mistakes, but we pinky-swear it'll never happen again" apologetics. The TYSSE project already has budget overruns and a single shovel has yet to pierce the ground.
 
A fairer comparison for a parallel subway (in this case parallel to Bloor-Danforth) that'd be a moneymaker-route for private investors would be the Eglinton Crosstown Line. Say a corporation steps in and sponsors under a P3 arrangement to help build, upkeep and operate the line as a full and true metro. Assuredly that'd be a better outcome for the public than the TTC's half-hearted solution.
If it's a Public Private Partnership, then the TTC will be involved in every step of the process. At this point the TTC would be risking billions of dollars in order to guarantee profits for the consortium. If, say, ridership on the Eglinton Line were not to reach expectations, the TTC would be required to hand over funds to make up the difference on top of operational expenses. I can't see how that will work for the taxpayer at all.

Introducing competition and market forces into the procurement of public infrastructure can make decision making more accountable, contribute to greater technological innovation, and reduce the potential for construction-cost escalations that consistently plague transportation projects. There is no limit for innovation in PPPs and when the private sector is given the flexibility to be creative, it can come up with remarkable things. However, without a political champion and a dedicated team within the public agency, PPPs typically will not work. The TTC itself is the consolidation of several former small-time Toronto-area operators. Imagine what if once again the TTC had to compete for riders against the West York Coach Lines of old? It'd only motivate them to step up their game and make their service more appealing to customers.
Decision-making will be less accountable, since private companies are not subject to public disclosure laws. There will be no technological innovation if it is not profitable to do so; using 50-year-old diesel cars on the YYZ-Union rail link is not innovative at all. It will introduce a new risk to the taxpayer, since the private partner will inevitably demand the government to guarantee operational profits. In Britain, the Thatcher government forced all local bus agencies to open to competition (outside London), and ridership plunged while fares soared. At least in London, private bus companies are merely franchises which operate under the public banner.

Plenty of "innovation" and "flexibility" involved in PPPs have ended up costing taxpayers billions of dollars.

Many transit agencies in the US faced massive penalties simply because derivative contracts involving AIG to procure buses and trains became uncertain during last year's financial crisis.

PPPs were used to build and finance urban tollways in Sydney and Melbourne, Australia. They now regret doing so, since they now cost more than they would had the government built them directly.

EDIT: The PPP to maintain the London Underground, which formerly was touted by PPP advocates, is about to end: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...L-draws-up-plans-to-take-over-Tube-Lines.html

Here in the GTA we have our own Highway 407 and Brampton Civil Hospital to look to as stellar models of PPPs.

There are plenty of other PPPs around the world which have failed and cost the taxpayers miserably while the PPP consortium walks away with dividends. So many corners were cut to build the Canada Line (it won't be possible to extend the line south, the station platforms will only take maximum three cars, the consortium reneged on its promise to tunnel through Vancouver) that it's hard to determine whether taxpayers will benefit from the construction.

The reason why TTC projects take forever is because it is not seen as a vital part of the city by politicians. If a highway project was treated like the Vaughan Subway extension, politicians would immediately make changes. You'd never see RATP in Paris or MTR in Hong Kong dither for years over whether a simple project should proceed and rack up billions in overruns.

If private investors want to start a rail link to YYZ and Union, they can so so entirely on their own without a dime of taxpayer money involved or at risk (which, by definition, is not a PPP). If they go bust, there will be no bailouts.
 
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There's no reason why a PPP couldn't consist of a private contractor building a line to TTC specifications and timeline, and/or operating it for a flat operating fee per year, with TTC collecting the fare revenue.
 
Here's a timely link to an article, Beyond private and public from Cap'n Transit, you maybe interested in reading:

There's been some buzz around the web lately about "public-private partnerships," which are apparently the latest word in transit financing. Some are understandably opposed to this because they connect it with "privatization," which is a trend that goes back at least thirty years. But all these different names obscure the fact that governments and private organizations have been interacting for hundreds of years, and that there are common threads throughout.

In the transit field, even the most private carrier relies on some government security, and even the most public agency contracts out some of its services to for-profit companies, buys insurance from private insurers, and sells bonds to private investors. In between there is a range of possibilities; I think it's useful to distinguish them along several axes. The government can have a greater or lesser share in funding the infrastructure or the rolling stock, in paying for operations, in assuming risk, in collecting revenue, and in controlling routes and schedules.

In the example of the New York MTA, the government funds the capital expenses and pays for a dwindling share of operations, but the rest of the operations are funded through fares, tolls, advertising, rent and a jumble of sales and payroll taxes. Although the authority is nominally government-controlled, the government shares de facto power with shifting alliances of real estate firms representing the largest contributors to the mortgage recording taxes, and friends and campaign contributors to various politicians. The risk is mostly borne by the authority, and the MTA buses enjoy a monopoly on most surface routes.

In contrast, the "private" bus lines that used to run in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx were contracted by the New York City Department of Transportation. The buses, and possibly the garages, were paid for and owned by the city. The city paid for the roads and bridges, assumed pretty much all the risk, and guaranteed a monopoly on those routes. I'm not too clear on it, but I believe that the city paid whatever operating costs were not covered by fares, and possibly a small guaranteed profit. I believe the contract that the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority has with a private consortium to run its commuter rail lines is similar. Although the New York situation evolved out of a legacy system, I believe it is this kind of arrangement that most transit planners think of when they think of privatization.

Then there are the various "private investment" schemes, where the government will sell some of the risk to private firms. In essence, the government is making a bet with the private investors. If farebox revenue goes up, the investors make money; if revenue goes down, people still get transit service. In the "leaseback" arrangement the private investors have no control over fares, timetables or routes, but in other arrangements they could.

In the private commuter bus lines that travel through the Lincoln Tunnel, although the routes and timetables are determined by the companies, there are restrictions as to what changes they can make and how. The operations are paid by fares, with some companies receiving government assistance, and any excess revenue going to corporate profits. The roads, the tunnel and the terminals are mostly paid for by the government and the Port Authority, but the companies pay tolls and gate fees for their use. In most cases, the buses are paid for and owned by the government. Each company has an implied monopoly on its route, and the government cannot legally engage in "destructive competition," although in theory I believe it's possible for one company to challenge another's monopoly. The risk is shared between the government and the operators.

The jitneys that are found in many developing countries, and also here in New York and New Jersey, are subsidized by publicly funded roads, bridges and tunnels, but the buses are usually privately financed, and operations are paid for through revenue collected directly by the operators, with the government taking a share through taxes and tolls and the operators and syndicates dividing the rest. There are usually no timetables; such dispatching as there is is controlled by the syndicates. The routing is sometimes controlled by the government, sometimes by the syndicates or operators. There is no official monopoly, although the syndicates may try to enforce one. Most of the risk is borne by the operators.

In all of these situations, it seems that there is a range of government financing, from infrastructure alone to infrastructure plus rolling stock, to both of those plus operations subsidies. The government can also enforce a monopoly to a greater or lesser extent, and assume a greater or lesser amount of risk. Funding seems to determine control: the more subsidies the government gives, the more control it has over routes and timetables.

Let's go back to that paraphrase of Melissa Thomasson about healthcare economics that I discussed in October:

Melissa Thomasson says that what we have combines the worst of the market and the worst of government. Markets are usually really good at controlling costs. When they work best, products come into existence, like cell phones or stockings. They start expensive, and then they get cheaper and better. But markets don't guarantee that everyone can afford the things they need. Government can be good at that, ensuring universal access. But when you're paying for everybody, it's hard to control costs.


It sounds like the typical "privatization" arrangement that I discussed above is also the worst combination of the market and government, and the "legacy" arrangement we find in New Jersey isn't much better. You get all the rigidity of government and all the greed of the private sector. If you've got a monopoly and rigid control of fares, routes and timetables, you might as well have the government doing it. Otherwise it just sounds like a union-busting tactic.

Selling the risk to private investors sounds like a nice idea until you think that with peak oil, farebox revenue is pretty likely to rise. It seems like a bad idea for governments to turn control over to private entities to eliminate a risk that's actually pretty low.

Meanwhile, in the private situations like the jitneys you do get the creativity of the market and the absorption of risk, and you can still keep the government involved enough to ensure access for all and things like safety, efficiency and clean air. If we want to work towards involving the private sector, that seems like the best arrangement for passengers and for the environment.
 
Transit benefits other than profit which the private sector would ignore

The problem with private sector take-over of public transit is that for the private sector, one thing and only one-thing matters, PROFITS. Nothing else actually matters to a corporation and it is bound to its shareholders to do its very best to turn the biggest profit possible.

But, public transit has a lot more impact on Toronto than just generating revenue to be turned into profit. And I don’t care whether the profit is for a private company or for the city’s budget. The fact is that when the city owns public transit, a lot more than profit enters the equation. Just to name a few: protection of the environment and lower CO2 emissions, improved quality of life, encouragement of economic growth, access to health services, schools, employment and entertainment for everyone, but especially the less fortunate of our society.

I think the role of public transit is too crucial to our city to hand it over to an entity, which is not concerned with any of the other impacts of public transit than generating profit.

I agree that the TTC is not perfect and that a lot of things seem to be actually wrong with it. But privatisation is not a solution to these problems, it’s simply a new set of problems. Why not instead fix the TTC itself?

I agree that some form of private involvement in operation could potentially help alleviate some of the problems. But having the publicly funded TTC compete with a privately parallel system does not sound like a feasible solution to me. When the TTC makes less revenue but keeps it’s costs structure, we as city residents through our municipal taxes foot the bill. I don’t want to increase the TTC losses and pay for them so that some other company can pick and choose the most profitable runs and compete there, while the TTC has to keep providing service where it does not make money and where private companies will not be interested. If such a scenario where to happen like bloor_christie suggests, we would all loose in the end.

TheCousin
 
I'm really confused as to how a PPP system would be any different.

From a capital/infrastructure standpoint; most of the work is already contracted out.

From an operational standpoint; what can really be done to run a bus route more effectively/efficiently? Lower frequency artics, and lower driver wages. And if TTC/Metrolinx would be determining service levels on the route, we're really just saying we think drivers are overpaid.

I'm certainly no economics wiz. Am I missing something major here?
 
From a capital/infrastructure standpoint; most of the work is already contracted out.

The main benefit of PPPs are that you get private capital coming into the project, meaning that the public purse has to fund less of it. In return for the capital coming in from the private company(ies), you give them a share / the entirety of the operating revenue. There are some potential benefits with operating, but the primary driver seems to be the ability for a government to fund transit improvements without using tax (or borrowed) dollars.
 
From an operational standpoint; what can really be done to run a bus route more effectively/efficiently? Lower frequency artics, and lower driver wages. And if TTC/Metrolinx would be determining service levels on the route, we're really just saying we think drivers are overpaid.

Not related to PPPs specifically, but generally for operating transit routes competitive tendering reduces the price... I've seen several case studies of around 20%-30% cost reduction along with improved service. Wendell Cox claims that London saw around a 50% reduction in costs adjusted for inflation, while service increased 32%. I've seen other London numbers showing a 20% increase in mileage and 40% decrease in cost per mile .. passenger journeys in London increased while in the rest of the UK (which was deregulated) they decreased. I'm not sure why beyond the usual government/monopoly = inefficient/bloated etc answer.
 
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The main benefit of PPPs are that you get private capital coming into the project, meaning that the public purse has to fund less of it. In return for the capital coming in from the private company(ies), you give them a share / the entirety of the operating revenue. There are some potential benefits with operating, but the primary driver seems to be the ability for a government to fund transit improvements without using tax (or borrowed) dollars.

So basically capital expenses are converted into operating expenses (is this even allowed anymore?), and there is still borrowed money involved, it just does not appear on the governments balance sheets.
 
There are some potential benefits with operating, but the primary driver seems to be the ability for a government to fund transit improvements without using tax (or borrowed) dollars.

This is the worst possible reason to bring in a private firm in an ownership position.

The government can almost always borrow at a lower rate from banks/pension funds than what the private firm could, or what a private firm would expect as a profit margin.

Private firms themselves would never do this for anything other than risk sharing. In fact, they try to do the opposite, and take over more of the vertical to control more costs.
 

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