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onfence

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After reading this thread: http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?10523-Baby-we-got-a-bubble!

it appears the general consensus is that the mkt will be down during the 2nd half. As such, I'm wondering if there is still a chance that developers will *raise* prices nevertheless: would this move be 'suicidal' in face of rising supplies or would factors such as the building being ready for occupancy/dwindling units in such building justify such price hike? Thx.
 
After reading this thread: http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?10523-Baby-we-got-a-bubble!

it appears the general consensus is that the mkt will be down during the 2nd half. As such, I'm wondering if there is still a chance that developers will *raise* prices nevertheless: would this move be 'suicidal' in face of rising supplies or would factors such as the building being ready for occupancy/dwindling units in such building justify such price hike? Thx.

Despite this, you may see some nominal price increases. $5-$10K on a $400K condo will not make alot of difference in people`s mind. That said, I doubt you will see much price increases but do not expect major price decreases on new product either, at least not this year. By next year, I think you may see some more incentives, possibly some cash back offers on closing which amounts to a price decrease but don`t expect major price drops, in my view.
 
After reading this thread: http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?10523-Baby-we-got-a-bubble!

it appears the general consensus is that the mkt will be down during the 2nd half. As such, I'm wondering if there is still a chance that developers will *raise* prices nevertheless: would this move be 'suicidal' in face of rising supplies or would factors such as the building being ready for occupancy/dwindling units in such building justify such price hike? Thx.

I wouldn't listen too much to what a lot of those guys are saying. International investors are what's really driving the prices up and to expect a sharp decline is unrealistic. In my opinion if you are paying $600/sq foot for a regular pre-construction condo downtown today (excluding such anomalies as Yorkville, etc) you are probably paying a full price for it at closing (2 to 3 years from now). If you can find a pre-construction condo downtown for under $500/sq foot then you will see that price climb up to $550/sq foot and up in the next few years. In regards to whether developers will be raising prices, I think that's a given since developers factor in the future price of their product (how much their condo will be worth at closing). I recently drove by the Streetcar Development sales office and was really surprised that they were selling their Trinity Lofts project at around $550/sq foot, while just a few months ago I bought a comparable unit at King East (just 5 minutes away) for under $450/sq foot. So you definitely need to look around these days to find these so called deals.
 
I wouldn't listen too much to what a lot of those guys are saying. International investors are what's really driving the prices up and to expect a sharp decline is unrealistic. In my opinion if you are paying $600/sq foot for a regular pre-construction condo downtown today (excluding such anomalies as Yorkville, etc) you are probably paying a full price for it at closing (2 to 3 years from now). If you can find a pre-construction condo downtown for under $500/sq foot then you will see that price climb up to $550/sq foot and up in the next few years. In regards to whether developers will be raising prices, I think that's a given since developers factor in the future price of their product (how much their condo will be worth at closing). I recently drove by the Streetcar Development sales office and was really surprised that they were selling their Trinity Lofts project at around $550/sq foot, while just a few months ago I bought a comparable unit at King East (just 5 minutes away) for under $450/sq foot. So you definitely need to look around these days to find these so called deals.

Yea, I bought at King East too. the PPSF of their units were very reasonable. I bought for $439/sqft. I think they have since raised all prices by about 40-50K now though.
 
That's what I heard as well. But even if they raised prices by 50K at King East, I bet it's still cheaper to buy there than at Trinity Lofts! :D
 
Typically builders will raise prices once construction starts.
I think some of the better selling developments will raise its prices just a bit, while with all the competition out there the slower selling developments will probably start to price chop.

Toronto is in a good position as we are bucking the world-wide recession trend. When things slow down in Toronto, the economy will improve elsewhere which will lessen Toronto's downturn.
 
I wouldn't listen too much to what a lot of those guys are saying. International investors are what's really driving the prices up and to expect a sharp decline is unrealistic.

When a local housing market is under the grips of such dramatic foreign non-resident housing investment the traditional supply/demand rules are thrown off. This is not a sustainable situation in my opinion and it is exactly what destroyed the market (and local economies) in Las Vegas, Miami, Phoenix, San Diego, etc. Las Vegas in particular was booming in large part because the housing construction industry was responsible for 25% of the city's economy! In many of these markets foreign buyers who were hoping to flip units walked away from their deposits once they realized the tide had turned. The immigration argument is rather weak as well when you consider the enormous immigration to hard hit cities like Atlanta, Georgia. I don't know when that will happen in Toronto (or Vancouver) and it probably won't happen to the same extent here because deposits are bigger and pre-sales are higher in Toronto but you can count on it happening.

A housing market's stability depends on the strength of the local economy and that means employment. Extraneous forces may blow through town but when the tide recedes (as it inevitably will) we will see who is swimming naked. Show me a city anywhere in the world where the local economy doesn't determine the cost of local housing. Enlighten us please why Toronto, Ontario, Canada, with it's harsh climate and lack of recreational attractions, should be viewed differently.

The funny part is when this happens everyone in the media will be suggesting that no one saw it coming!
 
Enlighten us please why Toronto, Ontario, Canada, with it's harsh climate and lack of recreational attractions, should be viewed differently.

Well, for now it's an opportunity for asian, middle eastern money to get exposure to the west. Cdn currency is seen as strong in light of the strong banking system and resource economy. If you want exposure to the west, better to be in Toronto than in the US. The money that was previously looking to land in Miami, vegas, Cali etc...now will not go there. Too much currency risk in the US and as well, they turned the real estate market into the fraud market. Canada's real estate book is quite solid from the perspective of the banks. They were always looking to collect mortage payments rather than securize them and dump them off to foreign banks and pension plans. So the buyers were properly qualified.

There is sure to be volatility going forward, but we are seeing a very special trend in int's real estate investment.

But YOU be the investor. Imagine you had $1million...where would you put it in today's environment on a global scale? Toronto real estate is certainly an excellent candidate for drawing capital.
 
CMHC: Canada's very own ticking economic time bomb

myfive, your argument strengthens my own. You argue that foreign investors are pumping money into the local Toronto housing market to shelter their capital. So when they find a better place to park their cash they will inevitably pull out and leave Toronto will multi-year housing bubble hungover found in so many other cities. This trend is not sustainable and ultimate causes more harm than good to local market participants.



I share this man's views:


CMHC: Canada's very own ticking economic time bomb

May 30, 2010

Stanley Taube

For the past few years, Canada has been basking in the glow of international economic praise.

Our banking system is the best in the world. There has been no need for government bailouts. True, we have recently been running large deficits. But they are manageable in terms of the size of our economy. Our dollar is strong. Investors want to invest in Canada. Best of all, our real estate market, with a short hiccup in late 2008 and early 2009, has been moving steadily upward. Historically low mortgage rates have made housing affordable to practically anyone wishing to purchase.

Not for us the housing disasters that have occurred practically everywhere in the world. No toxic investment paper, as was created in the U.S., by bundling mortgages into investment vehicles that had very poor underlying security. Not for us the “ninja†borrowers (no income, no job, no assets).

We look smugly at states like Nevada and Florida, where real estate values have fallen by up to 50 per cent from their highs in 2006 and 2007. And this gloomy scenario has been repeated in Ireland, Spain, France, Italy. You name it, and real estate has dropped dramatically. Even Manhattan in New York and Kensington in London have not escaped.

So is Canada really the nirvana of the world? We are part of the Planet Earth. Our economy is very much interwoven with many other countries. Are we that much smarter then practically everyone else? Maybe luckier?

Or is there a potential financial disaster lurking just over the horizon, waiting to put us into the real world of true financial crisis? I believe there is. And that disaster is the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC).

CMHC is a federally owned crown corporation that insures mortgage lenders against losses on their mortgage investments. It charges insurance premiums for this service. These premiums are higher for those mortgages where the borrower has little equity in his home. For example, the premium for a mortgage that amounted to 95 per cent of the home's value would be 2.75 per cent. The premium is generally added onto the mortgage balance. Accordingly, a borrower who takes out a 95 per cent mortgage could owe 97.75 per cent of the value of the home. Until recently, mortgages could be insured for 100 per cent of a home's value!

This all works very nicely if real estate values stay steady or keep rising. The CMHC program encourages people to buy homes by making mortgage loans available that private lenders would not give. But here are the problems:

Mortgage lenders invariably shift the riskiest assets into the CMHC program. You have 5 per cent down payment? Off you go to CMHC! You have 25 per cent down payment? You're our kind of client! We will retain your mortgage for our own account.

At the end of 2009, CMHC had $473 billion in outstanding guarantees. This is up from $408 billion at the end of 2008. With the frantic pace of real estate activity in the past few months, that figure is surely over $500 billion today.

And what is backstopping this huge obligation? CMHC had $9.3 billion in equity at the end of 2009. There is also a very paltry $1.3 billion for loan loss reserves. So there is approximately $10.6 billion available before CMHC runs out of money. After that? Well, CHMC obligations are direct obligations of the Government of Canada. We taxpayers are on the hook for the rest.

Let's assume that real estate in Canada falls a very reasonable 20 per cent in value. Given the recent run-up in prices, rising interest rates, ever increasing listings and fewer buyers who qualify for mortgages, a decline in values is virtually inevitable. Tens of thousands of borrowers will be unable, or unwilling, to make their payments.

The 20 per cent hit that CMHC could take would be more like 25 to 30 per cent. There are significant expenses in disposing of repossessed property — taxes, utilities, insurance, real estate commissions, legal fees, and so on. I would estimate that CMHC (which, in effect, is the federal government) could wind up $125 billion in the red.

This would blast an enormous hole in our government's finances. Canada would be put into the same category as the other prolific spenders. Which is where we should be. We are merely postponing the inevitable.

Stanley Taube is a lawyer and author. He has taught political science at the University of Toronto.
 
CNTower....there are always cycles. Things go up, things go down. Then they go back up, then back down. I don't think you can avoid this no matter what you do.

I do wish they would curtail some of these projects. There does seem to be and endless supply of develpment. But if there wasn't, prices on the smaller number of projects would be higher. So you'd get a drop at some point from the loftier levels anyways.

Best thiing is to ride it up, get out and buy back when things are cheaper. The challenge is to determine the timing.

Nothing you can do to avoid the up and down cycles in all things.
 
Regarding the post with the attached article from Stanley Taube. I note that at the bottom it says that he is a lawyer and author. With all due respect to Mr. Taube, what sort of expertise does he have to be writing on this subject.? Why does he think that a 20% drop is "reasonable"? I haven't heard any of the experts suggesting anything close to a 20% drop. The other major factors that led to the problems in the US are (i) subprime mortgages were being given to homeowners that did not have the means to carry their mortgages let alone deal with an increase in rates - in Canada much more attention is given to the creditworthiness of home owners (it is misleading to focus too much on how much of their home is financed) and (ii) in many US states, a home owner can walk away from their mortgage without any recourse by the lender other than foreclosing on their home (so if the value of their home falls below what they owe there is little disincentive for someone to walk away from their home since the bank can't go after them for the shortfdall) - this doesn't exist in Canada - a person will continue to owe the bank the full amount of the mortgage so there is less incentive to walk. As a result, I doubt a drop of say 2-5% in home values would cause much of an issue for CMHC.
 
Regarding the post with the attached article from Stanley Taube. I note that at the bottom it says that he is a lawyer and author. With all due respect to Mr. Taube, what sort of expertise does he have to be writing on this subject.? Why does he think that a 20% drop is "reasonable"? I haven't heard any of the experts suggesting anything close to a 20% drop. .

You know....this just never stops. I recall buying my first condo in 2002. It was a corner junior 2 bedroom in downtown, and i paid $205k. Was that such a high price? You would now have believed how many so called 'experts' at the time were saying condos were overpriced and were going to drop in value. This just never stops. At some point of course they do, but when people whine and complain about if for long enough, eventually they will be correct. i certainly don't see any fall off for at least 3 more years.
 
I invite you all to read a real expert's opinion, Garth Turner's blog: http://www.greaterfool.ca/

And in regards to the comment, "subprime mortgages were being given to homeowners that did not have the means to carry their mortgages let alone deal with an increase in rates - in Canada much more attention is given to the creditworthiness of home owners (it is misleading to focus too much on how much of their home is financed)"...

"So there you have it — housing and housing alone lifted Canada out of the recession." - Stephen Dupuis, President and CEO of BILD in a recent Star article: (http://www.yourhome.ca/homes/newsfe...is-housing-the-goose-that-laid-the-golden-egg)

So basically, if the housing industry is fully responsible for Canada's recent economic and job recovery, and it takes economic and job growth for people to afford housing, and it is the rising price of housing that is producing this economic and job growth, which in turn depends on... you get the picture. Does this not remind you of *ahem* Europe?
 
There was expected to be some additional supply coming onto the market the second half of this year, so we can expect some 'cooling'.
 
When a local housing market is under the grips of such dramatic foreign non-resident housing investment the traditional supply/demand rules are thrown off. This is not a sustainable situation in my opinion and it is exactly what destroyed the market (and local economies) in Las Vegas, Miami, Phoenix, San Diego, etc. Las Vegas in particular was booming in large part because the housing construction industry was responsible for 25% of the city's economy! In many of these markets foreign buyers who were hoping to flip units walked away from their deposits once they realized the tide had turned. The immigration argument is rather weak as well when you consider the enormous immigration to hard hit cities like Atlanta, Georgia. I don't know when that will happen in Toronto (or Vancouver) and it probably won't happen to the same extent here because deposits are bigger and pre-sales are higher in Toronto but you can count on it happening.

A housing market's stability depends on the strength of the local economy and that means employment. Extraneous forces may blow through town but when the tide recedes (as it inevitably will) we will see who is swimming naked. Show me a city anywhere in the world where the local economy doesn't determine the cost of local housing. Enlighten us please why Toronto, Ontario, Canada, with it's harsh climate and lack of recreational attractions, should be viewed differently.

The funny part is when this happens everyone in the media will be suggesting that no one saw it coming!

Why? Because Toronto is the best city in the world! Who doesn't want to live here! :D And no I wasn't being sarcastic.
 

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