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the fact that you say the Math not adding up with 20% down...for some projects.....i 100% agree with. The rents won't cover with 20% down if rates go up past 5%...and the price gap is so large now for some projects between what the developers are charging and what resale currently is I don't see how they can even get the capital gain play.

This year is the first year that I've seen more than 5 projects that have units that are occupying at prices paid 3 years ago that haven't reached resale levels.

Thats why i expect developer prices to go down and incentives to go up
 
My comment of "exactly" was to support dave in TO's comment that this supports the market being in "bubble terrirtory".
However, investors presumably are running numbers now and asking themselves if $600/sq.ft. justifies "investor purchases". As I have said before, I can't make the math add up.

However, approaching bubble territory and being a bubble are to vastly differnt things.
 
the fact that you say the Math not adding up with 20% down...for some projects.....i 100% agree with. The rents won't cover with 20% down if rates go up past 5%...and the price gap is so large now for some projects between what the developers are charging and what resale currently is I don't see how they can even get the capital gain play.

This year is the first year that I've seen more than 5 projects that have units that are occupying at prices paid 3 years ago that haven't reached resale levels.

Thats why i expect developer prices to go down and incentives to go up

I agree totally with what you have said. However, without necessarily naming the projects but you can if you are comfortable, can you give an example and rought location (for eg. downtown core) and say" price paid on average" and current "resale value".
 
However, approaching bubble territory and being a bubble are to vastly differnt things.

Brian, I am not that smart to know if we are approaching a bubble, in a bubble, or whether or not even in a bubble if it will burst and if so when.
That said, I believe I can make the following observation reasonably safely which ties into your last post. The downside risks at present outweigh the upside potential.
Hence, need to move with a long term horizon and buying for personal use....O.K. We can argue the merits but that is not a purely financial decision. However, investment pruchases today: in my view and based on your previous post.... perhaps we can best say a questionable decision.
 
so Ka1 and others,
please give me your collective wisdom to my#1870 post.
I am really curious.
And if possible, specific recommendations.

It is easy (and I am guilty of it as well) to say this and everything else is bad. Let's take the next constructive step and suggest what we should do if we believe the bubble is imminent, here, or "coming soon to a theatre near you" and if so, when.

- sell stock (almost point for a short term peak and possible year end correction), buy back next round if there is opportunity
- buy bond Investors see bond rally lasting as Fed buy looms
- stay with your current R/E situation, wait to see more signs; if a real bubble and cannot recover in long run, then find a break (a moment of rebound) to sell
- buy commodities futures (devalued money, possible inflation)...


The first three is what I do. For the fourth option personally I do not know futures at all, so another option - stock up everything you can buy today ;)
 
- sell stock (almost point for a short term peak and possible year end correction), buy back next round if there is opportunity
- buy bond Investors see bond rally lasting as Fed buy looms
- stay with your current R/E situation, wait to see more signs; if a real bubble and cannot recover in long run, then find a break (a moment of rebound) to sell
- buy commodities futures (devalued money, possible inflation)...


The first three is what I do. For the fourth option personally I do not know futures at all, so another option - stock up everything you can buy today ;)

X2. Useful advice. Won't sell stock but have limited exposure:

Bonds, can't justify buying at these prices as am not a bond trader. I note that the TIPS (Treasury inflation protected notes) sold well ($10 billion USD oversubscribed at $28 billion demand) yielding negative return for 5 years. Market is betting with this that inflation will come back and that they will make money and are effectively tieing up their money with no return to buy the inflation protection. Fits with the bond rally view.

Real estate is part of my balanced portfolio: not leveraged. The hope would be that you get a moment of rebound. In 1989, once it went down, it continued to go down the next 4 years with no break. In the US, since 2006 it has been a steady decline. Anyhow, I am in for the "very long term" with most of my holdings so it is really paper gains / losses we are talking about.

Futures I would not do. I am not an expert in this field. If you are offside, it is possible you could have very significant if not infinate exposure. I would however consider buying options but would probably just hold some commodities/ commodity stocks as part of balanced portfolio and hope that something of my diverse approach will survive.

Thanks for the response. Anyone else disagree totally or significantly and if so, please explain why.
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...-stays-positive-about-housing/article1773964/



Carney stays positive about housing
JEREMY TOROBIN
OTTAWA— From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
Published Tuesday, Oct. 26, 2010 6:59PM EDT
Last updated Tuesday, Oct. 26, 2010 7:31PM EDT

Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney is still concerned that home prices could drop more sharply than expected and exacerbate the growing debt burden of many households – but he doesn’t see it as very likely.



Speaking to the House of Commons finance committee Tuesday, Mr. Carney said the slowdown in housing is unfolding as the central bank expected it would, given the tighter mortgage rules brought in by the Finance Department earlier this year and the fact more Canadians are retrenching after spending and borrowing with abandon amid record-low interest rates.


Still, he warned, a quicker, less measured drop is a possibility. Should that happen, it would almost certainly mean Canada would see slower economic growth than Mr. Carney’s latest forecasts, which included downgrades for five consecutive quarters.

“One of the important downside risks to our projection is the possibility that there is a more abrupt correction in the housing market than we’re anticipating,” Mr. Carney told lawmakers at the panel hearing in Ottawa. “We’re not forecasting an abrupt correction, but it is a possibility, given two factors: the speed with which house prices rose and, secondly, the absolute weight of debt in the economy that is tied to housing.”

The housing market’s descent from the loftier levels of late last year and the first three months of 2010 has been a key driver of the economy’s shift from one that was the envy of the Group of Seven six months ago to one that grew at a meagre 1.6 per cent annual pace last quarter and which will take more than a year than previously thought to return to its full potential.

On one level, the housing slowdown was expected and even welcome, since it suggests fewer Canadians are gorging on cheap credit and taking out big loans they won’t be able to handle as interest rates creep back up to more normal levels. The demand for homes that was spurred by rock-bottom interest rates pushed the market into overdrive last year, sent prices soaring and powered the domestic rebound until exports started to recover.
The flipside is those purchases fuelled what Mr. Carney often refers to as “front-loaded growth.” Buyers rushed into the market to get ahead of interest rate hikes, as well as things like the tighter mortgage rules that took effect in April and the harmonized sales tax that came into force in Ontario and British Columbia in July. Now that consumers have tapped out their ability to take on debt, fewer are buying homes or any other big-ticket items.

That’s why, in theory, home prices could fall more rapidly, which in turn would cause a sharper slowdown in consumer spending because so many Canadians’ actual and perceived wealth is tied up in their homes
.
The Bank of Canada’s benchmark interest rate could remain at the current 1 per cent for several months, as policy makers wait for the crucial U.S. economy to start improving before raising borrowing costs on this side of the border.

Raising Canadian rates while the U.S. Federal Reserve is still on hold could send investors who want higher yields to currencies like the loonie, making life harder for exporters.

Mr. Carney told the parliamentary panel that if sudden moves in Canada’s exchange rate with the U.S. dollar or ``persistent strength’’ in the loonie got to the point that they posed a serious risk to the economy, he and the federal government ``maintain considerable options’’ to get the situation under control ``if that is necessary.”


I note the title of the article and the content don't follow. If anything, he is warning the downturn may be worse than expected.

We better hope there is not too much of a downward correction because the spiral could get very nasty. I still appreciate this is a theoretical argument and I am sure there are those who say by publishing this in papers will in fact make it happen and that the newspapers are responsible for the "correction" if it occurs.

However, the chorus just keeps getting louder. Those who ignore it do it at their own peril.
 
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Brian, I am not that smart to know if we are approaching a bubble, in a bubble, or whether or not even in a bubble if it will burst and if so when.
That said, I believe I can make the following observation reasonably safely which ties into your last post. The downside risks at present outweigh the upside potential.
Hence, need to move with a long term horizon and buying for personal use....O.K. We can argue the merits but that is not a purely financial decision. However, investment pruchases today: in my view and based on your previous post.... perhaps we can best say a questionable decision.

So i guess the question is why are people buying: My guess is the stock market is so volatile and internationally the economy of other countries are doing so bad...Canada looks relatively good place to park money.

Questionable if you're Buying for $700psf and hoping to flip on occupancy or registration. However, buying at $450-$550psft in neighborhoods where resale gap is small might be a good deal. Just got to do your homework
 
I agree totally with what you have said. However, without necessarily naming the projects but you can if you are comfortable, can you give an example and rought location (for eg. downtown core) and say" price paid on average" and current "resale value".


I'll give you a freebie. In Fort York, people were buying at $500psf in 2007.
 
Oh you're talking about those rental projects...WPC. :D They're garbage and were bought 90% by investors. Tough to make a buck on crap is the lesson to be learned. Also, perhaps, CP--all those units for sale in Panorama can't be a good sign...?
 
No one is doubting that most pre-construction condos are bought buy investors.
I am somewhat skeptical. Maybe it's true for some, but where is the data that says most are? Maybe most luxury condos?

Cuz in my condo which was a smaller one and non-luxury, I'd say most bought to live there. We'd have condo get togethers, and speaking to the people who attended, it became clear that renters were relatively few.
 
I am suprised but have to report that I have learned that in a project under construction , the builder just raised all his prices by 8% on average.

The project is selling well and they continue to sell. I state I am suprised because in this climate, I am shocked he feels he can raise by this amount. This is a luxury condo project ($1000+/foot). I state I am suprised because I read the "sweet spot" of the market was the $600-900 upscale projects.

I am starting to wonder that with all the money flooding looking to go somewhere, it is parking in TO's real estate for lack of somewhere else to go.

I can't believe the developer would be raising this much unless he felt he can get it and the market will support it. Does this mean more of a bubble, I just don't know.
 
I think Rob Ford said he is going to abolish the land transfer tax around 2012, could this put an even bigger dent in toronto sales? as people might wait to avoid paying the tax? or is it a non issue? opinions?
 
I think Rob Ford said he is going to abolish the land transfer tax around 2012, could this put an even bigger dent in toronto sales? as people might wait to avoid paying the tax? or is it a non issue? opinions?

I think it may delay some sales certainly at entry level, perhpas make marginal players wait as they can save some money in the iterim and also pay a bit less. It may even affect some tradeup buyers. However, I don't think it makes enough of a difference on a $400,000+ purchase that people will avoid/delay decisions on this alone.

Similar to the GST and other taxes, people just accept it as a given and after initial anger, it is just "part of the cost".

The other side to this argument might be that this possibility of avoiding the tax may make waiting worthwhile but it also makes properties more affordable ( by the amount of savings on the LTT) and a number of people will look at the final amount they want to carry in a mortgage and either buy a more expensive house or maybe prices rise to offset the saving of the LTT. Who really know?

One final point, it may make it a bit more attractive to buy something that will finish after 2012 if he follows through with the promise to eliminate the Toronto LTT. If that happens, projects and sales slated to be completed late 2011 may experience some decreased demand as people choose to close the deal in early 2012 rather than late 2011.
 

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