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while true, who pays for upgrades so much in advance?
most developers don't even discuss that option with a buyer until colour selection, and by that time construction has been well underway.

afaik, most developers won't even allow assignments until a majority of units are sold, near completion and only with their permission. again, the project would be well underway and not just in sales.

now, if we get a stump of a tower, that's something completely different scenario.

cdr,
I don't recall which developer was offering it but I seem to recall getting a "VIP" invite in which the developer was offering free assignments. I believe they were doing this to try and get to the 80% I hear now banks are asking in presales from anyone but really established developers.

Unless the developer was going bankrupt, he would reimburse the money for upgrades due to the reputational hit. After all,
the money paid for upgrades would not have been delivered and hence this would be fraud. That said, you are right that that money is not in an "in trust account" as are the deposits held at the lawyers.
 
No, these scenarios aren't likely. Just wanted to show that it isn't a guarantee that buyers will not lose money despite having deposits in a trust account.

while true, who pays for upgrades so much in advance?

People who want floor plan modifications and a developer who treats it as an upgrade rather than modifying the unit price.

afaik, most developers won't even allow assignments until a majority of units are sold, near completion and only with their permission.

The contract terms for top producing agents and investors (people who regularly take 5 or more units buildings the developer produces) are somewhat less restrictive in this sense. It really only gets hairy if the investor isn't Canadian, otherwise a simple lawsuit for breach of contract should be sufficient to recover the buyers funds.
 
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Interesting article on Spain's bubble:

Europe’s debt crisis: Spain becomes the great eurozone test case
Published on Friday June 29, 2012
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JENNIFER WELLS/TORONTO STAR Monique Friede of Barcelona will soon be getting an eviction notice from the bank. After handing over the keys to her apartment, she will still owe roughly 80,000 euros of outstanding debt on the property.

By Wells, Jennifer Feature Writer

BARCELONA, SPAIN—It was approaching five o’clock on a Wednesday afternoon when Monique Friede made her way along Calle Obradors, a gloomy gothic alleyway a few quick minutes from Barcelona’s Rambla. Friede was wearing a loose African print dress — the cotton was cooling, she would later explain — and carried a sheaf of text-heavy papers issued by her bank.
Even in the heat of the euro crisis, and even with Spain now supplanting Greece as the epicentre of the debt bomb, the Rambla retains its honeytrap allure for tourists, with its broad and beguiling promenade and its cheap sangria. Calle Obradors, in contrast, suffers a deeply melancholic mood — most of the street is shut up tight and the light, even at this early hour, is all but spent.
Friede would enter at No. 6 and seat herself before Montse Hernando Lezcano, an impassioned Barcelona-born lawyer, who, after-hours, volunteers for Plataforma de Afectados por la Hipoteca. It wouldn’t be quite accurate to describe PAH as an association, or an organization. It’s more of a movement, one that is gaining ground daily, providing legal advice to displaced — or soon to be displaced — homeowners, while marshalling public opinion to force a change to the country’s mortgage (hipoteca) laws.
Of course, the top-line news of the day isn’t concerned with the matters of one woman who lives with her two daughters in a three-bedroom flat and whether or not she will get food on the table this evening. This month’s serial meetings of G20 and European leaders, from Los Cabos, Mexico, to Rome, to Brussels on Thursday, have been focused on the intractability of the eurozone mess broadly, a split between Germany and its supposed sister countries narrowly, and specifically in Spain’s case the still-pending €100-billion bailout of the country’s faltering banks, the details of which have yet to be fixed.
Read more:Eurozone leaders reach debt deal after all-night talks
Need it be stated that Monique Friede is not in line for a bailout of her own? It is within her predicament, however, that one finds the root causes of the catastrophic state that Spain, Europe’s fourth largest economy, finds itself in.
Here’s a statistic: a tripling of unemployment in the past five years to more than 24 per cent. Youth unemployment at, virtually, 50 per cent. Exports: falling. Private consumption: falling. Recession? Yes. With Greece for all practical purposes insolvent, Spain becomes the great eurozone test case.
READ MORE:Europe’s debt crisis: Greece
The news for Friede on this day is not good. Lezcano peruses the documentation from the bank, engages in a lengthy sympathetic exchange with the handsome woman in the African print dress, and concludes that the bank has, in fact, already legally repossessed Friede’s home, with an eviction notice soon to follow. Here’s the catch: even after her eviction, even after Friede hands over the keys to her modest home, she will be on the hook for the outstanding debt on the property, a sum totalling roughly €80,000 (about $103,000). That legacy debt, Lezcano explains, will destroy Friede’s ability to rent a flat, to finance a car, to arrange for credit of any kind. That is her future.
Friede, 48, offers the bare storyline of the preceding years: her arrival from Cameroon in 1990, one in a flood of immigrants to Spain at the time. The acquisition of an apartment in 2004, with a 30-year mortgage on which she and her husband paid little more than interest, the loss of her job and her husband’s ultimate skipping out of her life. And now what?
Lezcano refocuses the conversation rather sharply: “Do you realize what s--- legal system we have here in Spain?”
And then more softly, “You know, the main problem here is that people don’t believe that something like this is happening.”
From Madrid, Fernando Rodriguez de Acuna Martinez contextualizes Spain’s housing bubble. Parts of the storyline are familiar, echoing first the U.S. and later, Ireland. Take an easy credit recipe mixed with a lending war between financial institutions, topped up with real estate developers hoping to capitalize both on internal demand driven by a latent baby boom and external demand for vacation properties on Spain’s Mediterranean coast.
“If you wanted credit as an individual or developer, it was just a matter of knocking on doors,” de Acuna says. “If the first bank didn’t give you the credit, go to the second or the third or the fourth. Sooner or later, you get the credit.”
The construction boom fuelled employment. Easy credit fed consumption. And the risk levels were only heightened as the banks strong-armed the country’s valuation companies to artificially inflate real estate values. It went like this: historically the recommended loan-to-value guideline for borrowers was set at 60 per cent. That galloped to 80 per cent.
“They took all those valuations aside and started to give all the way up to 100 per cent,” de Acuna says. And beyond. Between 2004 and the peak in 2008, valuation companies were over-valuating homes by as much as 20 to 30 per cent.
Here’s an ugly number. De Acuna’s real estate research firm, which has been crunching sector data since 1980, has tallied Spain’s surplus housing stock: 1.9 million units sit empty.
If the economy doesn’t worsen — and that’s a big if — there could be recovery here in Barcelona two or three years hence. Look south, however, and note the ghostly apparition of empty buildings dotting the coastal regions through the provinces of Castellon and Valencia and on. “Castellon is so overdeveloped we don’t see the probability of recovery in the next 20 years,” de Acuna says.
Travel further to Almeria, pretty and sparkling on Spain’s southern shore, where Banco Santander, one of the country’s largest banks, is selling off detached houses for €30,000 (roughly $38,000). “Most medium-sized cars here sell for more money,” notes de Acuna.
There is a term used by the Spanish banks that de Acuna translates as “the rattle effect,” meaning the sound of a baby rattle being shaken. “The banks receive envelopes in the offices and when they shake the envelopes they hear the rattle of the keys,” he says. “In the coastal areas many foreign purchasers gave the keys back thinking that was enough . . . It’s not that you give the keys and everything is solved. No, no, no.”
In situations such as Monique Friede’s, the bank will have little expectation of having the debt repaid. “The bank knows in most cases they won’t recover (the money),” says de Acuna. “But in reality what that means is that those people lose all their credit capacity . . . That woman is going to be on a credit report blacklist and that means her life is going to be quite troubled.”
At a book store coffee shop on Carrer de Pau Claris, Josep Oliver-Alonso arrives with his Financial Times tucked beneath his arm. Among the latest releases at Laie, which has the cool feel of Toronto’s opera house, is the most recent offering from American economist Paul Krugman with the exclamatory title “Acabad ya con esta crisis!” (End this depression now!)
A trim presence in a blue suit and Ray-Bans, Oliver-Alonso is an economics professor at the Autonomous University of Barcelona who can offer a tight-as-a-drum recount of the road to the euro from the ’60s, when the French, as he says, “wanted to dissolve the mighty German currency in a basket of southern currencies with less importance;” through the Werner Plan of 1970 (a first blueprint for European economic and monetary union); to the Maastricht Treaty on European union (those strictures we keep reading about limiting public debt to a maximum of 60 per cent of GDP and a national budget deficit of no more than 3 per cent of GDP); to the suddenly no-longer-fanciful notion that 50 years of history could be in for a seismic reset.
“If the euro fails, the European Union will fail also, and we will come back to the ’30s of the last century,” he says.
Previous postwar crises, before Spain joined what is now a 17-member eurozone, were addressed with conventional means. In response to the deep recession of the early ’90s, which saw the country lose 10 per cent of its labour force, Spain devalued its currency, the peseta, three times. “The mood was low,” says Oliver-Alonso in his understated way. “We had problems and knew that if we were not in the euro we would have more problems in the future . . . Europe is our natural land. Our future is Europe.”
Spain, perhaps surprisingly, wrangled its money house into shape in time to join the European Monetary Union in 1998. There were pragmatic reasons beyond emotional European brotherhood why that had to happen. “We knew that we needed external constraints in order to organize our economy better,” says Oliver-Alonso. “Left alone the Spanish economy tends to have high inflation, disequilibriums. This has been our history for the last century before joining the euro . . . We needed to get the country to be more competitive, to increase productivity, to put the country in constraints.”
But the union was not magical. “Our prices started to grow faster than the French and German. Our wages started to grow faster. Our productivity started to grow with less intensity.”
Some numbers: the total amount of household debt increased from €200 billion in 1998 to €900 billion in 2008. Bank credit to real estate and building companies exploded from €50 billion in 1998 to half a trillion euros a decade later, which is the clearest way of seeing how the country has come so close to the brink. The gross external debt increased from something on the order of €600 billion to €2.2 trillion.
The cratering of the housing market had explosive results: of the three million jobs lost as a result of the financial crisis, half were in the building sector and, adds Oliver-Alonso, a further 500,000 jobs were related to the building sector.
The way forward for Oliver-Alonso is political. Without a central government it is clear the current institutional framework of the euro does not work, he says. “You can destroy the euro and everyone will go back to their houses and recover the peseta. Or you step forward and create the policies toward a political union, a fiscal union, a banking union. This is the dilemma that we face. I don’t know if we’ll be able to do that.”
Rushing from a radio interview, part of a media blitz for the promotion of his just-released book on the euro crisis, Antoni Castells encapsulates the drama thusly: “When we went in the euro, I think that the less competitive countries didn’t calculate the imbalances, the mistakes in design the monetary union could produce. The political factor was very powerful. All the people wanted to be in the leading countries, the first-class countries.”
For Castells, the preferred way forward is clear. To exit the euro, to pursue the renationalization or rebalkanization of Europe, would be a “tragic solution,” he says. “An awful solution.”
The only possible option, he believes, is to build a real federal government in Europe with fully integrated markets (including a labour market integrated throughout the eurozone) and full fiscal union. “We have broken the legitimacy of Europe, because the people elected by the citizens don’t have power. The president of Spain? He doesn’t have power. The power is in Germany or Brussels. The people who have power have not been elected by the citizens. (German Chancellor) Angela Merkel? We have not elected Angela Merkel.”
It’s a common refrain.
It is Merkel, champion of austerity, who as of Thursday was still standing firm against the push by Spain’s prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, to ease the country’s pressures via a centrally supported buying up of Spanish (and Italian) bonds. “In the end we will see euro bonds,” predicts Oliver-Alonso boldly.
Merkel’s message to the market: not in her lifetime.
“The stereotypes have come true,” says Oliver-Alonso, rather sadly. “It’s true we are grossly in debt and they are not. My God, you can’t avoid that.”
Perhaps Monique Friede would be seen by some as a stereotype. So a ride along on the metro seems in order, the furious fanning on oneself on the un-air-conditioned car, the charming and exceedingly brief ride up the funicular to Friede’s home. The television is on. Her younger daughter, Michelle, 4, is spiritedly flopping this way and that on the couch. Her 14-year-old daughter, also named Monique, is cramming for exams and wants to know two things:
“Is Canada beautiful?” and “Is Justin Bieber there?”
The lighting is dim — electricity bills are high, Friede says, quickly flicking off the lights after a tour through the space, a view of the simple kitchen, and then the bathroom with its ceiling speckled with black mould.
The flat is depressing. There is resignation now. “We don’t talk. It’s finished,” she says of her relationship with her once-friendly bank. “Now the bank gets the house.” He elder daughter sums up the family’s predicament thusly: “More trouble.”
There’s a word in Spanish. Quiebra. The bankruptcy. The crash. Outside an INEM office in Barcelona, where the unemployed go seeking work, Elyazi Aseyakhe speaks of those who have lost everything, those who had a nice life before. “Now it’s in the quiebra,” he says.
Friede awaits her eviction notice, her quiebra moment. Even that won’t satisfy her bank.
“Let me go,” she says, just like that. “Let me go.”
 
Any predictions for the 2012, last chance to place your bets before the new year starts.

The world will not end in 2012. RIM stock will hit $6.50 (which is my buy target). New Condo construction sales will slow dramatically and this thread will hit the 400 page mark.

Wow, I'm pretty bang on with my predictions for 2012 (from last December).

I wont be buying RIM when it gets to $6.50 though
 
^^^
tragic Marsh.
That said, it just shows why the government has to take steps to try and stop the price escalation and hopefully avoid a big burst like in Spain.
While some will benefit in the short term (ability to buy cheaper), many will lose jobs, the economy will suffer and the overall standard of living of everyone would hurt.
Canada did not have the type of construction as in Spain. Yes Vancouver is/has been a bubble in my view a long time. The TO condo market (precon) is ahead of itself. I am not so sure the rest of the market is too overvalued. (A 10-20% drop is nothing compared to Spain where you are looking in the South at 50-75% price reductions hence the greater tragedy there. That said, there are similarities to here that one can't just walk away so people will continue to pay even if underwater by 5 or 10% provided they still have jobs and the means to pay.
 
Wow, I'm pretty bang on with my predictions for 2012 (from last December).

I wont be buying RIM when it gets to $6.50 though

Ric, can you tell me the winning Lotto ticket numbers.
By the way, all good calls so far. Of course you know by the law of averages your next 4 calls will probably be wrong. LOL
 
From Joseph P. Kennedy's Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy,_Sr.

Kennedy later claimed he knew the rampant stock speculation of the late 1920s would lead to a crash. It is said that he knew it was time to get out of the market when he received stock tips from a shoe-shine boy.

You're probably wondering why I posted the above. I feel like I recently had my very own Joseph P. Kennedy-esque moment. Recently a family friend switched careers from the health and wellness business to, you guessed it, a real estate agent! He is constantly updating his personal facebook page letting all his "friends" know that he wants to "help them build wealth", and "become a successful RE investor", etc, etc. He posts open invitations for people to come and meet him for coffee so he can explain what a good investment the pre-con condos he is selling are. (I have now hid his updates - very annoying). He also was able to obtain VIP agent status at a couple of new condos opening in TO but outside the core/downtown. How did a total rookie agent with literall 2 weeks under his belt manage to obtain VIP agent status? He must obviously know someone. Now don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with switching careers and becoming an agent. However, to me, it reeks of the above sentiment that Joe Kennedy had. It's like everyone and his brother is now a real estate investor/mogul/super agent, and is giving advice on how to make it big like Trump.

Anecdotally, another story I'll share. I was recently chatting with a good friend of mine that works as a financial advisor at a local big 5 branch. He said mortgage business has ground to a halt in the month of June and he was a bit concerned. Not sure if that is normal for the time of year (I know July and August are slow RE months along with Dec and Jan).

Anyway, the question I now ask myself, have we finally hit the peak?
 
Further anecdote.

Someone mentioned to me that in the US 1/2 the agents did not have a single sale.

Alot of people get their licence because they imagine it is all easy money and glamour. The reality is very different. This still does not change my view that the commission rates are disproportionate to the work done in most cases.

VIP status after 2 weeks is either he knows someone or a reflection of the difficulties of the PRECON market presently. I am sure developers will gladly give VIP to anyone to get sales going if the chatter we hear that projects other than a few very desirable ones are being rebranded, postponed, cancelled, or having difficulties to poor launches.
 
Ric, can you tell me the winning Lotto ticket numbers.
By the way, all good calls so far. Of course you know by the law of averages your next 4 calls will probably be wrong. LOL

And thus the reason I will make no further predictions. Got to keep my perfect record intact. :D
 
Further anecdote.

Someone mentioned to me that in the US 1/2 the agents did not have a single sale.

Alot of people get their licence because they imagine it is all easy money and glamour. The reality is very different. This still does not change my view that the commission rates are disproportionate to the work done in most cases.

VIP status after 2 weeks is either he knows someone or a reflection of the difficulties of the PRECON market presently. I am sure developers will gladly give VIP to anyone to get sales going if the chatter we hear that projects other than a few very desirable ones are being rebranded, postponed, cancelled, or having difficulties to poor launches.

Out of curiousity I viewed his Facebook page and it looks like he has updated it recently. He is now selling units at 88 Scott. He says he can get units on the 40th floor for $620psf. Interesting.
 
Out of curiousity I viewed his Facebook page and it looks like he has updated it recently. He is now selling units at 88 Scott. He says he can get units on the 40th floor for $620psf. Interesting.

It depends on views. If North face usually cheaper than South or West. Also, I believe parking and locker are seperate. Also, if it is a larger suite, the cost/sq.ft. is generally cheaper than a smaller suite.

Still $620/sq.ft. sounds good given the floor but if one adds parking I am sure one is at $700. Most buildings from just 1 or 2 years ago at this price would have had the parking included I would have thought.
 
It depends on views. If North face usually cheaper than South or West. Also, I believe parking and locker are seperate. Also, if it is a larger suite, the cost/sq.ft. is generally cheaper than a smaller suite.

Still $620/sq.ft. sounds good given the floor but if one adds parking I am sure one is at $700. Most buildings from just 1 or 2 years ago at this price would have had the parking included I would have thought.

All good points, Interested. I went back and scoured his page again. Unfortunately no details were given as to the size and direction of the suite. If I were a betting man I'd guess they were slightly larger north facing suites.

One thing that concerns me even more is that he is thanking his friends for "investing with him and putting their trust in him". Here is someone that really has no experience yet is giving advice to others. I wonder how he and they will feel if the condo market severely corrects. I hope he knows what he is getting himself into, and is not drawn by the "glamour" of the business as you said earlier. It's never worth destroying friendships over a few dollars.
 
Hey guys,

On the subject of precon, has anyone heard/read about how 88 Scott is doing? I would think that such an AAA location, design (well its seems you either hate it or love it), ok pricing (relative to what else is out there) would sell like hot cakes, but apparently this may not be the case. A quick run down of what I've heard/read about other projects:

-Monde is at 40% and going nowhere (we all pretty much know this)

-ditto for 60 Colborne

-Tux on hold, 3rd hand info/speculation is that poor sales the reason (see UT thread)

-Eau Du Soleil is at ~40%. I've heard this first hand from those at the sales centre and from VVVIP brokers. Seems to be selling pretty well since it was launched most recent compared to the above, it's $600+ PSF and it's also much a larger project.

-E Condos...conflicting reports, have heard/read completely opposite things. A few days ago @TalkCondo tweeted all 6 penthouses at E have been sold. Seems like a good sign?

-then again, Andrew Lafleur tweeted 'Developer drops their prices up to $25K for 1 bedroom suites on a new condo that just released a couple weeks ago'. I'm trying to match up the timeline of which one this could be. My guess is Waterways (Conservatory Group), but I could be completely wrong.

Anyway, any one else hear anything on 88 Scott or other recent launches?
 
And just to touch on the subject of rents in the core from about a week ago, check this blog by Lafleur. Yes, I know he is a realtor, but it's always interesting to hear these types of stories 'from the trenches':

I wrote a few months ago that it was a good time to be a landlord, particularly if you are in the condo rental game. Supply seems to be at an all time low, vacancy rate is zero or close to it, and bidding wars from renters are driving rental rates up far faster than sale prices.

I wanted to share with you another anecdotal story to illustrate just how crazy the rental market is right now. A colleague of mine recently listed a unit at VU (112/116 George Street – Adelaide and Jarvis). It was a 1 bedroom, 1 bath unit on a mid-level floor and it included 1 parking spot (floor plan below). There was nothing remarkable about this unit other than it was a rather large one bedroom. It was NOT on the preferred side of the building facing the downtown skyline, rather it had an east exposure.

Asking price was $1950/month! For a 1 bedroom on Jarvis! I thought they were being way too aggressive on the asking price but when I called my friend who was the listing agent, he told me that in just 2 days on the market the property attracted 5 offers and went for $2050/month!*$100 over the asking price. Wow.

This is just one story of hundreds. Ask anyone who has tried to rent a condo downtown it the last 6 months how their experience was. Downtown Toronto is booming. All signs continue to point towards increased rents and better returns to come for investors who are buying today. Those who have their heads stuck in the sand and keep saying things like, “they are building too many condos’ are totally out of touch with the reality of how tight the rental market is downtown.

Source: http://www.truecondos.com/rental-market-continues-to-soar/
 
Toronto's new condo mix

Condos seem to be getting smaller not bigger


Of the 6,005 condos ready for occupancy this year, 63 per cent are studios or one-bedrooms. The average size is 822 square feet. The 9,090 condos slated for completion in the former city of Toronto in 2014 an average size of 695 square feet; 67 per cent are studios or one-bedroom units, according to a report by Urbanation.

condos2012.jpg

condos2014.jpg


http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/toronto-newcondos/
 

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