[Art Vandelay]

So is Art done with this thread? He'll just be posting reviews from religous organizations from now on?

Until my speech is censored by a Human Rights Commision or the Moderator of this forum, I will continue to speak my mind here. Sorry.

Lost in the specious attacks against intelligent design and the ad hominem attacks against people of faith is any meaningful discussion on intellectual freedom. Does academia censor ideas or thoughts that challenge established orthodoxy? Yes or no?

I've read the posts questioning the integrity in which Stein's movie was made. I have challenged those who question his methodology to make those same charges against the propaganda produced by Moore or for that matter Al Gore in his ironically entitled movie An Inconvenient Truth.

I have been accused of raising a red herring but I see it more as a litmus test. Point out the stye in the eye of Ben Stein while ignoring the log in Moore's and you've demonstrated your arguments are based not on a desire for truth but in defending your own political ideology.

 

[theman23]

Until my speech is censored by a Human Rights Commision or the Moderator of this forum, I will continue to speak my mind here. Sorry.

Posting the words of others is not "speaking your mind".

Lost in the specious attacks against intelligent design and the ad hominem attacks against people of faith is any meaningful discussion on intellectual freedom. Does academia censor ideas or thoughts that challenge established orthodoxy? Yes or no?

No. The RNA revolution, epigenomics, and new information brought about through annotation of the human genome have all challenged orthodox views in recent years, dramatically altering our view of biology. These have not been ridiculed to the same extent as Intelligent Design. Why? Because these ideas were supported by real science.

I've read the posts questioning the integrity in which Stein's movie was made. I have challenged those who question his methodology to make those same charges against the propaganda produced by Moore or for that matter Al Gore in his ironically entitled movie An Inconvenient Truth.

No, you've largely ignored the posts and continued to post reviews from websites that clearly are oblivious to the accusations against Stein.

I have been accused of raising a red herring but I see it more as a litmus test. Point out the stye in the eye of Ben Stein while ignoring the log in Moore's and you've demonstrated your arguments are based not on a desire for truth but in defending your own political ideology.

It is exactly a red herring. What makes you think I, or anyone else here, supports Michael Moore or has even watched his films? You're trying make this argument political, which is revealing of your true motives.

 

[Art Vandelay]

It is exactly a red herring. What makes you think I, or anyone else here, supports Michael Moore or has even watched his films? You're trying make this argument political, which is revealing of your true motives.

Politics permeates everything in life. It forms one's frame of reference. There are two types of people in this world. Those who identify their politics and wear it on their sleaves and those who feign ignorance of their politics.

I'm wary of anyone who thinks they are apolitical and yet spends his day posting his opinions on a web forum.

I was attracted to the idea of Stein's movie not because I wanted an argument for intelligent design but because attention needs to be drawn to the growing problem of intellectual censorship --global warming being the most obvious and dangerous example.

I've read your copy and your pasted articles and even clicked on your link to YouTube so don't pretend that I am the only one who has pasted articles. We have both written material and quoted material.

You want to continue a debate on intelligent design and not on academic freedom (which is the argument I want to make) let's do it mano-a-mano. No pasted articles, no web links and no YouTube.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

RE to: what delay industries?

i haven't watched any of moore's films.

BTW, moore is a catholic and gore is a baptist. i don't know why you are equating them with the "evil secularists" as if their movies have something to do with natural selection.


and censorship, intellectual freedom? would you make a stink if a public school teacher took it upon his/her self to teach holocaust denial in history class and was told not to? what if a mormon teacher wants to teach in the class room that african people and native americans, etc. are dark skinned because it is punishment from god and was told not to teach such views? can the belief of zeus' lightning bolt myth be taught in physics class? if not, is it intolerance? what about having alchemy as an alternative to chemistry? if the professor of planetary sciences wants to teach astrology to the students as if astrology was fact and got fired, would you rush to his defense?

 

[theman23]

Politics permeates everything in life. It forms one's frame of reference. There are two types of people in this world. Those who identify their politics and wear it on their sleaves and those who feign ignorance of their politics.

Maybe, but this movie has absolutely nothing to do with Michael Moore. And from what I've read about him, I'm likely on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to many of the issues he discusses.

Politics permeates everything in life. It forms one's frame of reference. There are two types of people in this world. Those who identify their politics and wear it on their sleaves and those who feign ignorance of their politics.

I'm wary of anyone who thinks they are apolitical and yet spends his day posting his opinions on a web forum.

I was attracted to the idea of Stein's movie not because I wanted an argument for intelligent design but because attention needs to be drawn to the growing problem of intellectual censorship --global warming being the most obvious and dangerous example.

I've read your copy and your pasted articles and even clicked on your link to YouTube so don't pretend that I am the only one who has pasted articles. We have both written material and quoted material.

You want to continue a debate on intelligent design and not on academic freedom (which is the argument I want to make) let's do it mano-a-mano. No pasted articles, no web links and no YouTube.

I don't think I've ever posted an article or youtube in my entire history on this forum, let alone in this thread. What in the heck are you talking about? You are oblivious to reality. Are you doing this intentionally to annoy?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

intellectual freedom 'eh?

okay children. today i have been granted freedom by the state to teach alternative views to our political studies. would everyone please open their copys of "protocols of the elders of zion" to chapter one....

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

here's an alternative to law school.....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g


witches burn because they are made from wood. wood floats in water and so do ducks. if the supposed witch weighs the same as a duck that means she is made from wood and therefore is a witch.


it's called witchtrial science and should be taught in our legal schools as an intellectual alternative.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Maybe, but this movie has absolutely nothing to do with Michael Moore. And from what I've read about him, I'm likely on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to many of the issues he discusses.


I don't think I've ever posted an article or youtube in my entire history on this forum, let alone in this thread. What in the heck are you talking about? You are oblivious to reality. Are you doing this intentionally to annoy?

My apology it was fellow poster Prometheus The Supremo who has an affinity for YouTube and straw arguments.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

My apology it was fellow poster Prometheus The Supremo who has an affinity for YouTube and straw arguments.

really? straw arguments?

 

[Art Vandelay]

really? straw arguments?

Your posts, as humorous as they may be, albeit not for their intended purpose, range from the sublime to the ridiculous. You take a point an exaggerate it to such an extreme that it has no bearing in reality and therefore easily refuted.

The great irony is that you in fact advance my argument. You remind us that often in history what was accepted as irrefutable truth was in reality utter nonsense.

The censoring and persecution of those who challenged the prevailing wisdom of the day had dire consequences. Today, that unfortunate lesson is being repeated by those who say such questions as the origin of life or climate change have been settled.

Such questions have not been settled the so-called consensus does not exist.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Your posts, as humorous as they may be, albeit not for their intended purpose, range from the sublime to the ridiculous. You take a point an exaggerate it to such an extreme that it has no bearing in reality and therefore easily refuted.

The great irony is that you in fact advance my argument. You remind us that often in history what was accepted as irrefutable truth was in reality utter nonsense.

The censoring and persecution of those who challenged the prevailing wisdom of the day had dire consequences. Today, that unfortunate lesson is being repeated by those who say such questions as the origin of life or climate change have been settled.

Such questions have not been settled the so-called consensus does not exist.

can you provide some examples?

 

[Art Vandelay]

can you provide some examples?

Straw Man argument

witches burn because they are made from wood. wood floats in water and so do ducks. if the supposed witch weighs the same as a duck that means she is made from wood and therefore is a witch.


it's called witchtrial science and should be taught in our legal schools as an intellectual alternative.

the origin of life

In Expelled Richard Dawkins can't answer the question how did life originate. Perhaps it was started by aliens.

Persecution of those challenging prevailing wisdom

NASA scientist loses his job for questioning anthropogenic climate change

Dire consequences of the prevailing wisdom being accepted as truth

America starts burning corn to fight global warming. People in the third world can't afford the soaring cost of food staples.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

QUOTE=Art Vandelay

Straw Man argument

witches burn because they are made from wood. wood floats in water and so do ducks. if the supposed witch weighs the same as a duck that means she is made from wood and therefore is a witch.


it's called witchtrial science and should be taught in our legal schools as an intellectual alternative.

i was quoting a funny line from a movie to show how ignorant people can be when they accept belief over knowledge/facts. if you allow the intellectual freedom for school systems to teach a belief as an alternative, you have to allow them to teach all other kinds of beliefs as alternatives to other subjects because the factor isn't whether it's right or wrong, to you it's a matter of intellectual freedom.

the origin of life

In Expelled Richard Dawkins can't answer the question how did life originate. Perhaps it was started by aliens.

it's a joke. deal with it.

Persecution of those challenging prevailing wisdom

NASA scientist loses his job for questioning anthropogenic climate change

what does this have to do with anything i said?

Dire consequences of the prevailing wisdom being accepted as truth

America starts burning corn to fight global warming. People in the third world can't afford the soaring cost of food staples.

did i say we should burn corn in this thread or any other? you're the one that keeps mentioning global warming. again, what does this have to do with anything i said?


is this the best you can do?

 

[Art Vandelay]

QUOTE=Art Vandelay



did i say we should burn corn in this thread or any other? you're the one that keeps mentioning global warming. again, what does this have to do with anything i said?


is this the best you can do?

Expelled is not an argument for Intelligent Design. It is an argument for academic freedom. This was my original post and the more I learn of the movie the more sure I am of my original assumption.

Watch the movie and decide for yourself.

I make the connection to the current hysteria over anthropogenic climate change because it illustrates so well the consequences of the lack of debate on such issues.

You choose to make arguments against such freedom by first making absurd comparisons and second by acting ignorant of how the lack of academic freedom in one area has anything to do with another.

You have failed to illustrate how intelligent design is bad science or how it has anything remotely in common with the examples you use. And you certainly haven't demonstrated how these ideas are so dangerous that they should not be investigated.

What exactly has you so afraid?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Expelled is not an argument for Intelligent Design. It is an argument for academic freedom. This was my original post and the more I learn of the movie the more sure I am of my original assumption.

Watch the movie and decide for yourself.

I make the connection to the current hysteria over anthropogenic climate change because it illustrates so well the consequences of the lack of debate on such issues.

You choose to make arguments against such freedom by first making absurd comparisons and second by acting ignorant of how the lack of academic freedom in one area has anything to do with another.

You have failed to illustrate how intelligent design is bad science or how it has anything remotely in common with the examples you use. And you certainly haven't demonstrated how these ideas are so dangerous that they should not be investigated.

What exactly has you so afraid?

1) there is no such thing as academic freedom. you can't just teach anything in school.

2) i don't know if i should waste my time watching the movie because i already know it is filled with lots of false information & lies which have been brought to light.

3) there is no debate for ID or creationism. you can't compare global warming debate to ID debate because man made global warming, whether real or not is based on at least something that is physical. you can't investigate something that is invisible and requires faith.

4)you arguing about academic freedom for personal beliefs. you can't just pick and choose what gets freedom and what doesn't. either it's all or none. i prefer none. personal beliefs don't belong in the curriculum.

5)intelligent design is not science. it is pseudoscience at best. the ideas of ID can't be investigated. it is all a matter of faith and ignoring reality. ID is bad because it relies on faith, bad logic and lies. lots of lies. science alters our knowledge to reflect reality while ID alters our knowledge of reality to support a faith based claim.

making up claims to support ID is extremely dangerous. well, not really making up claims. it's when people accept things based on faith and are programed to accept things based on faith that we start to get in serious problems. keep the bullshit out of the classroom. children don't know any better and will believe what is taught to them because they trust adults.

do you have any idea how hard it is for me to undo all the damage from being brought up in the catholic school system? do you have any idea how much suffering it has brought me? one of the reasons why i am such a critic when it comes to these religious debates is because it's part of the process of undoing all the damage. another reason is because i don't want others to go through what i have.