[TOareaFan]

Man, Russell Martin sucks. Has he ever gone a game without striking out at least once? Anyone else wish we had Dioner Navarro still, but as our primary catcher?

in his 11 year career, in an average 162 games, Martin strikes out 107 times....so, yes, I am going say there have been games where he did not strike out....I am sure you can find specific examples. Over that 11 years he is a .256 hitter, averaging 18 home runs and 77 RBI...all while he is considered a premier defensive catcher with a gun for an arm that catches base runners stealing.

Dioner Navarro, in 13 years, has a 162 game average of .254, 13 home runs and 60 RBI while striking out 80 times....so he hits for roughly the same average, but with less run production and strikes out less.....and with not quite the arm of Martin.

Notice those numbers are calculated over many years, and over averages of 162 games....I am not a huge baseball guy but I do get that careers/value are not established over any particular 23 game stretch.

As for last year....Martin's stats were amazingly similar to his career 162 average numbers (in brackets) average .240 (.256)...HR 23 (18) RBI 77 (77)...strike outs 106 (107). He played in 129 games last year....so his strike out pace was up to .83 a game compared to a career average of .66 per game....but his home runs were way up to .18/game compared to .11 as were his RBI .60 compared to .48.

Oh, and did we mention, great defensive catcher with a gun for an arm?

 

[ADRM]

That's an entry level contract for elite level prospects, typically 1st round picks. The organization won't pay you that type of money unless they're confident you will develop into a full-time NHL player. The minimum NHL salary was $575,000 in 2015-16. A player typically takes home 30-35% of that. Still a good salary but how many years will you stay in the league making the bare minimum?

Minimum salaries across all 4 leagues is roughly ~$500 grand. So yeah, many players make massive salaries but the fringe players, of which the majority of pro organizations rely on to fill roster spots on minor league teams or practice squads, are the ones without career security. There are a lot more athletes than we tend to believe who are on the outside looking in is the point I'm trying to make.

Out of interest, how do you get to 30-35% as the take home figure? I get there roughly as such—does this jive with your thinking?
// ~50% to income tax, as I think every player would be in the top bracket in any US or Canadian jurisdiction (though it would be a lower percentage in many US states)
// ~20-25% to the NHLPA (subject to the league's financial performance and its agreement with the PA)
// ~3-5% to some combination of agents and business/financial managers

 

[Armour]

His performance is about far more than his batting ability. We need defence as well as offence. You want to make changes? Send Dickey packing until the weather warms up. Shake up the bull pen. That's where we're hurting. (I'm also not a fan of Gibbons, but he's not likely to be changed out any time soon).

Yes, the

in his 11 year career, in an average 162 games, Martin strikes out 107 times....so, yes, I am going say there have been games where he did not strike out....I am sure you can find specific examples. Over that 11 years he is a .256 hitter, averaging 18 home runs and 77 RBI...all while he is considered a premier defensive catcher with a gun for an arm that catches base runners stealing.

Dioner Navarro, in 13 years, has a 162 game average of .254, 13 home runs and 60 RBI while striking out 80 times....so he hits for roughly the same average, but with less run production and strikes out less.....and with not quite the arm of Martin.

Notice those numbers are calculated over many years, and over averages of 162 games....I am not a huge baseball guy but I do get that careers/value are not established over any particular 23 game stretch.

As for last year....Martin's stats were amazingly similar to his career 162 average numbers (in brackets) average .240 (.256)...HR 23 (18) RBI 77 (77)...strike outs 106 (107). He played in 129 games last year....so his strike out pace was up to .83 a game compared to a career average of .66 per game....but his home runs were way up to .18/game compared to .11 as were his RBI .60 compared to .48.

Oh, and did we mention, great defensive catcher with a gun for an arm?

Defensively, yes, he is a good player. I never denied that. His batting is another story; which is what I wanted to address, namely. When he does connect, he can put up fairly good numbers, but he is terribly inconsistent and not a reliable batter much of the time (especially when he needs to be; i.e. one hit in last year's playoffs). I don't find him to be an intelligent or confident hitter, either. He chases a lot of really bad pitches, routinely. 9 consecutive strikeouts is pathetic and should never happen to anyone playing at this level. I think he is the weakest batter in the starting lineup, along with Goins and Pillar.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes, the

Defensively, yes, he is a good player. I never denied that. His batting is another story; which is what I wanted to address, namely. When he does connect, he can put up fairly good numbers, but he is terribly inconsistent and not a reliable batter much of the time (especially when he needs to be; i.e. one hit in last year's playoffs). I don't find him to be an intelligent or confident hitter, either. He chases a lot of really bad pitches, routinely. 9 consecutive strikeouts is pathetic and should never happen to anyone playing at this level. I think he is the weakest batter in the starting lineup, along with Goins and Pillar.

You suggested that Navarro is a better offensive player.....I showed career offensive stats for both that prove that wrong....but you can have your opinion and choose to use a small sample size instead of 11 and 13 years of stats to support it.

 

[Armour]

You suggested that Navarro is a better offensive player.....I showed career offensive stats for both that prove that wrong....but you can have your opinion and choose to use a small sample size instead of 11 and 13 years of stats to support it.

I suggested that I'd rather have him and asked if others felt the same.

 

[Translude15]

Out of interest, how do you get to 30-35% as the take home figure? I get there roughly as such—does this jive with your thinking?
// ~50% to income tax, as I think every player would be in the top bracket in any US or Canadian jurisdiction (though it would be a lower percentage in many US states)
// ~20-25% to the NHLPA (subject to the league's financial performance and its agreement with the PA)
// ~3-5% to some combination of agents and business/financial managers

That's about right. Taxes fluctuate depending on where the player is based but all athletes across all leagues are taxed not just where they live but in all jurisdictions where they play games. Andrew McCutchen's pay stub was posted online last year but it gives you an idea of the tax situation for pro athletes:

Gross pay was $820,659.88 for the pay period. After taxes and deductions net pay was $427,098.49. That doesn't include agent and business management fees so say another ~10% and he takes home ~40% of his gross salary. Keep in mind McCutchen made $10 million in 2015 so it's not like he's hurting. I believe he also has numerous endorsement deals. NHL salaries would be similar in terms of taxation but the escrow terms of the CBA play into the varying amounts players actually get paid as well. Sidney Crosby is another Pittsburgh athlete earning a similar salary ($12 million) so I'd imagine his pay stub would look quite similar to Cutch's.

 

[TOareaFan]

there was an interesting discussion recently involving a guy that is (seemingly) a sports taxation expert....it was not so much about the taxation as it was about the differences in jurisdictions but it does re-inforce the notion that (while not "hurting") athletes take home less than we think.

The topic was Steven Stamkos and where he would end up playing next year.....for those not following, Tampa Bay has offered (it seems) $8.5million a year but Stamkos wants $10mil....theory is that Toronto would find the room in their cap to bring him back to Ontario.....the expert pointed out that at $10 mil a year in Toronto, Stamkos would take home (after, taxes/agents/etc) $4.3 million.....while out of his $8.5mil in TB he would take home $4.6mil.

Athletes make a lot of money...but other people (agents, mgmt and the general tax coffers) take a good bit away from them also.

 

[Translude15]

there was an interesting discussion recently involving a guy that is (seemingly) a sports taxation expert....it was not so much about the taxation as it was about the differences in jurisdictions but it does re-inforce the notion that (while not "hurting") athletes take home less than we think.

The topic was Steven Stamkos and where he would end up playing next year.....for those not following, Tampa Bay has offered (it seems) $8.5million a year but Stamkos wants $10mil....theory is that Toronto would find the room in their cap to bring him back to Ontario.....the expert pointed out that at $10 mil a year in Toronto, Stamkos would take home (after, taxes/agents/etc) $4.3 million.....while out of his $8.5mil in TB he would take home $4.6mil.

Athletes make a lot of money...but other people (agents, mgmt and the general tax coffers) take a good bit away from them also.

Further to that, whenever the Jays or Raptors have struggled, many tend to point to anti-Canadian sentiment and an aversion to higher taxation as primary reasons as to why free agents won't sign in Toronto but ultimately, taxation rates for Toronto athletes is on par with those playing in NYC (New York), Chicago (Illinois) or LA (California) whose states have similar taxation rates. Obviously Florida has its perks with no income tax but there are more reasons beyond taxes as to why free agents choose their ultimate destinations. Winning tends to be the prime motivator for most.

Also, as pro athletes are paid in US funds, living in Toronto is actually ~25-30% cheaper given the current exchange difference. Kyle Lowry pointed that out in an interview with ESPN last year.

 

[gabe]

Cecil is just horrible 0-5.

 

[PinkLucy]

That I agree with

 

[Videodrome]

Stroman pitched a gem on his birthday! The Jays actually won a series at the Trop.

 

[Armour]

That I agree with

Russell Martin doesn't suck, but Cecil does? Why is my response a knee jerk reaction, but this isn't? Cecil was arguably the most reliable reliever last season (why wasn't that mentioned?). Not that I don't agree with you, that he has been terrible this year. There just seems to be a double standard.

 

[PinkLucy]

I've never been a Cecil fan. He was making me nervous last year and this year has been brutal. Martin is playing injured, Cecil isn't.

 

[Armour]

I've never been a Cecil fan. He was making me nervous last year and this year has been brutal. Martin is playing injured, Cecil isn't.

Martin still stinks (hitting wise) when he is healthy.

 

[Translude15]

I've never been a Cecil fan. He was making me nervous last year and this year has been brutal. Martin is playing injured, Cecil isn't.

Cecil's velocity isn't where it should be to start the year. He had the same problem last year but as his velocity increased, so did his performance. Give it some time.

Martin still stinks (hitting wise) when he is healthy.

Yeah. Martin sure stinks with his career .350 OBP and .752 OPS. It's one month into the damn season. Everybody needs to relax about his production.