[lenaitch]

That's true - but it's not like the old highway has just vanished. When the provincial road numbering ends, there's still a road.

We even have Ontario freeways that turn into a municipal freeway. We see this with Highway 404 and the QEW in Toronto. Highway 85 in Waterloo.

Whether highway 27 west of Highway 400 is a municipal road or provincial road isn't the primary issue, as it doesn't impact traffic flow.

I agree, I was just reflecting former policy that the Harris government itself pretty much blew out of the water anyway.

 

[nfitz]

I agree, I was just reflecting former policy that the Harris government itself pretty much blew out of the water anyway.

I'm not sure the relevance though. I'm not talking about the highway numbering - who really cares about that. I'm talking about the road design itself. What's the difference between extending the bypass a few hundred metres further west to intersect a major road, rather than just intersecting the expressway.. Surely it's optimum to disperse the traffic in as many ways as possible.

Do you think they erred when the extended Autoroute 50 about a kilometre further east at Autoroute 15 to intersect with a north-south highway? It's pretty much the same thing.

 

[north-of-anything]

What's the difference between extending the bypass a few hundred metres further west to intersect a major road, rather than just intersecting the expressway.. Surely it's optimum to disperse the traffic in as many ways as possible.

The locals don't want it extended to County Road 27. Bypassing Highway 400 would still be doable by using 10th Sideroad - northbound it parallels the freeway up to Barrie (just like 27), and southbound it now curves into 5th Line heading west to meet County Road 27. It would be a completely redundant freeway spur that wouldn't serve anywhere close to the amount of traffic that would warrant it, unless you were intending on extending it further out to Alliston.

 

[ZEBuilder]

I'm not sure the relevance though. I'm not talking about the highway numbering - who really cares about that. I'm talking about the road design itself. What's the difference between extending the bypass a few hundred metres further west to intersect a major road, rather than just intersecting the expressway.. Surely it's optimum to disperse the traffic in as many ways as possible.

Do you think they erred when the extended Autoroute 50 about a kilometre further east at Autoroute 15 to intersect with a north-south highway? It's pretty much the same thing.

The difference is spending millions more on design work and construction to the benefit of very few in comparison to the length of bypass already approved, years down the road if the demand is there, sure go ahead but right now the interchanges at 10th Sideroad and down the 400 at Simcoe Road 88 can suffice.

Plus the 400 interchange has gone through so many design iterations that you'd be wasting so many tax dollars just trying to design it to extend to 27 that it isn't worth it until demand can justify it.

 

[ARG1]

That's true - but it's not like the old highway has just vanished. When the provincial road numbering ends, there's still a road.

We even have Ontario freeways that turn into a municipal freeway. We see this with Highway 404 and the QEW in Toronto. Highway 85 in Waterloo.

Whether highway 27 west of Highway 400 is a municipal road or provincial road isn't the primary issue, as it doesn't impact traffic flow.

Gonna play Devil's Advocate for a bit. If we are to treat the whole downloading process at face value, it was done so because those roads were no longer considered to be important, so its kinda useless to make the argument of "it used to be highway" since there's a "reason" why its no longer a highway.

... That being said that argument assumes that the reason it was downloaded was valid and not full of baloney (and most of the Harris downloads were absolute nonsense).

 

[Dreambig1]

I'm not so sure. Unless people check that there is an existing situation before leaving home (assuming central Toronto) before committing to go 400 or 404, it seems most regular weekend travellers have their route and seldom deviate from it. I used to run from Barrie to Pearson and on weekends would go nowhere near Hwy 400 but instead use a route of Sideroad 15 (CR 53) through the marsh to Weston Rd. Never stopped (well, except for stop signs). In a few places you could see Hwy 400 and it would invariably be stopped.

If it is to be a bypass, be a bypass. If it were just an upgrade or linking of existing municipal roads, there would still be the issue of private driveways, cyclists (don't know if they will be prohibited from the bypass), etc. Besides, if that's all they were wanting to do, the Region could have done it years ago.


I'm not convinced the MTO sees filling in the numbers as a pressing problem.

They may not see it as a pressing problem but they seem to be filling in the numbers as they go along they filled in 2 awhile back with the addition of the 412 and 418 now they wanna add the 413 and it seems like this project could likely get another one filled in. i would guess a 414 and as mentioned the 411 and 415 are highly likely to be applied to a future upgrade of both highway 11 and 115.

 

[nfitz]

The locals don't want it extended to County Road 27.

If we worried about what every local thinks (and I doubt it's unanimous), then nothing would happen. I've heard that not 100% of people want the highway built at all!

My dealings with those in rural Bradford are bizarre beyond what I've ever seen anywhere in the ... world? There was neighbours next to proposed cemetery fighting it, because it wasn't consistent with the rural setting! I guess they need to knock down all those rural churches as well. This in a spot that could see high rises in a few decades ... which would they prefer?

Plus the 400 interchange has gone through so many design iterations that you'd be wasting so many tax dollars just trying to design it to extend to 27 that it isn't worth it until demand can justify it.

What? You mean they aren't protecting for a future extension? In an area that's neither green belt, moraine, escarpment, which will surely be developed?

If so, the incompetence is shocking.

 

[Civdis]

I'm not so sure. Unless people check that there is an existing situation before leaving home (assuming central Toronto) before committing to go 400 or 404, it seems most regular weekend travellers have their route and seldom deviate from it. I used to run from Barrie to Pearson and on weekends would go nowhere near Hwy 400 but instead use a route of Sideroad 15 (CR 53) through the marsh to Weston Rd. Never stopped (well, except for stop signs). In a few places you could see Hwy 400 and it would invariably be stopped.

If it is to be a bypass, be a bypass. If it were just an upgrade or linking of existing municipal roads, there would still be the issue of private driveways, cyclists (don't know if they will be prohibited from the bypass), etc. Besides, if that's all they were wanting to do, the Region could have done it years ago.


I'm not convinced the MTO sees filling in the numbers as a pressing problem.

I think most people are using real time GPS navigation apps like waze and google maps. Not only do I check the best route when leaving, I get regular updates throughout my drive. I cannot tell you how many times I would have loved to had this direct connection to the 404 when coming south. Instead I was routed into a zigzag pattern on local roads. Redundancy in the system is a very good thing.

 

[Civdis]

That's a poor use of valuable funding though.

I think most people who own and rent cottages likely pay a disproportionate amount of taxes. Do we not count?

 

[narduch]

I think most people who own and rent cottages likely pay a disproportionate amount of taxes. Do we not count?

Spending billions so cottage owners can maybe save 5 minutes off their commute to the cottage is a major waste of money.

 

[Civdis]

Spending billions so cottage owners can save 5 minutes off their commute to the cottage is a major waste of money.

It is only one benefit, there are many others!

 

[narduch]

The difference is spending millions more on design work and construction to the benefit of very few in comparison to the length of bypass already approved, years down the road if the demand is there, sure go ahead but right now the interchanges at 10th Sideroad and down the 400 at Simcoe Road 88 can suffice.

Plus the 400 interchange has gone through so many design iterations that you'd be wasting so many tax dollars just trying to design it to extend to 27 that it isn't worth it until demand can justify it.

Using this same reasoning to not extend it to 27, you are basically make the case to not build this highway in the first place

 

[narduch]

If it is to be a bypass, be a bypass. If it were just an upgrade or linking of existing municipal roads, there would still be the issue of private driveways, cyclists (don't know if they will be prohibited from the bypass), etc. Besides, if that's all they were wanting to do, the Region could have done it years ago.

This is a really good point. If this highway was really so needed the municipalities could have built their own road ages ago.

But they didn't. Because it wasn't.

 

[2323]

Spending billions so cottage owners can maybe save 5 minutes off their commute to the cottage is a major waste of money.

Ok then, let's cancel the Northlander too while we're at it. Apparently there's nothing up there but cottages. And wait till you hear this- people actually live in Bradford and northern York Region that regularly go to Toronto!

 

[north-of-anything]

This is a really good point. If this highway was really so needed the municipalities could have built their own road ages ago.

But they didn't. Because it wasn't.

If the Downtown Relief Line was really so needed, Toronto could have built their own subway ages ago.

But they didn't. Because it wasn't.