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Gotta wonder what those figures will be in ten years, after all the 905 municipalities run out of development fees and are forced to sharply up tax rates to pay for badly needed infrastructure upgrades.

Especially if hour-long daily drives become unaffordable to the average Joe, who has to cope with soaring food and energy prices at the same time.
I don't know about that. I live in Cabbagetown and work at Markham Road and Highway 7, and use about 40 litres of gas every seven to eight business days. So I'm filling up about 32 times a year. Each fill-up costs me about $50 at $1.30/L, or $2,600 a year. My auto insurance costs are $106 a month, for a total of $1,272 a year. The car is paid for, but needs about $200 a year on average in maintenance. So, my total annual car cost is $4,072. That's not too bad at all.

Now, if gas returns to $1.15 a litre, my annual fuel cost drops to under $1,500, bringing my total auto operating costs down to under $3,000 a year. Not bad for personal transport door to door with great tunes and my thermos of tea.

As for my time, it takes me 30 minutes to drive to work, and about 35 minutes to drive home, all on relatively open highway driving on Markham Rd., the 401 and DVP. This is less than it used to take me to get home when I worked at Yonge and Lawrence and took the subway to College and waited an eternity for the 506 streetcar or walked home. So, my commute is now faster, more confortable and still very affordable.
 
The traffic and bad drivers would probably give me road rage and make me go slowly insane.
It was public transit rage that I was suffering from. Stinky streetcar passengers, subway short turns, 20 minute waits for streetcars (in many cases I could walk from my house on Sumach to Yonge and never be passed by a streetcar).
 
I suppose I am fortunate to both live and work downtown where my daily commute is a 15-minute walk or a 5-minute bike ride.
 
It is plain to see that we are experiencing a drain of jobs from the central core, if not all of the 416 area. Many of the condos that are going up are being built on land that once employed dozens, if not hundreds of high paying jobs. Massey Fergueson - I know, I know, gone for decades. But what about Addison? Two hundred very high paying jobs were once where 3 condos are going up. A concierge and cleaning staff don't make what a mechanic does. Ooh, good: we got rid of a big, bad dealership. But so too are those jobs. Canadian Tire and Old Navy do not pay the same.
I know of at least one company that moved to Ajax, taking many of its employees with it because the owners were sick of the commute from their palaces in Uxbridge to downtown.

I recently had dinner at a quaint little Italian place on King St., near River. The owner lives in Stouffville. I got an earful from him after he closed the place and my guests and I plied him with questions about the state of running a business in the core.

Road rage or subway rage, the time it takes to move around in this city is getting outrageous.

Since the average person will change their job 5 or 6 times in their adult life, how can you know where you and your spouse are going to work over the next 40 years? If you buy a house in the west end because both of you work in the west end, what happens when one or both of your jobs moves? Do you move closer to your work? Which spouse loses out? Then there's worrying about which schools the kids will go to. Oh, I guess we can just drop the kids off by bicycle. :rolleyes:

For those who can walk to work - bully for you. But when you leave that job and end up working in Missisauga, you'll damn well be howling for more expressways or a subway along Eglinton. ;)
 
The car is paid for, but needs about $200 a year on average in maintenance.

That sounds very low. Do you change tires in the winter? Get any oil changes? Have any repairs at all? If it's a new car I can see it being that low. You did say it is paid for, but the majority of car owners don't have a new car that is fully paid for.
 
The car is paid for, but needs about $200 a year on average in maintenance.
That sounds very low. Do you change tires in the winter? Get any oil changes? Have any repairs at all? If it's a new car I can see it being that low. You did say it is paid for, but the majority of car owners don't have a new car that is fully paid for.

No, but you can buy a decent car for $300 a month. Insurance depends on where you live and who you are, but $150/ mo. wouldn't be a bad estimate. Many new cars only require oil changes once a year, no tune ups, tranny flushes or rad flushes for 5. If you're leasing, you could easily get away with $200 a year in maintenance (not an import, though!) An older car would probably be higher than that.
For a lot of people, it is whether you have free parking where you work/live. Parking rentals downtown can be $200 a month in some areas.

It's a question of priorities for many people. I see no lack of cars in the garages of these new condos, nor even the rattier places like St. Jamestown.

If businesses are voting with their moving van, then this needs to be looked into. Like it or not, the chattering classes may not want to drive their Porsche through endless construction downtown.

At some point, it is going to take more than students and retired teachers to fill the condos downtown......
 
Dichotomy seems to be the new miketoronto.

His concerns and perspectives on these issues are just as valid - regardless of the perceived negative tone.

It seems like when a different perspective is shared then the 'group-think' mentality here - they are unfairly ostracized.
 
At some point, it is going to take more than students and retired teachers to fill the condos downtown......

Where does one come up with the notion that downtown condos are inhabited primarily by students and retired teachers? That certainly isn’t the case in my building, anyway…
 
I don't know about that. I live in Cabbagetown and work at Markham Road and Highway 7, and use about 40 litres of gas every seven to eight business days. So I'm filling up about 32 times a year. Each fill-up costs me about $50 at $1.30/L, or $2,600 a year. My auto insurance costs are $106 a month, for a total of $1,272 a year. The car is paid for, but needs about $200 a year on average in maintenance. So, my total annual car cost is $4,072. That's not too bad at all.

Now, if gas returns to $1.15 a litre, my annual fuel cost drops to under $1,500, bringing my total auto operating costs down to under $3,000 a year. Not bad for personal transport door to door with great tunes and my thermos of tea.

Your math doesn't appear to be correct. A 15 cent decline (about 11%) in the price of gas causes a $1100 decline (40-ish%) in your overall gasoline bill. Does the high price of gas cause you to consume more gasoline? Logically, gas prices returning to 1.15 would only save you about $250 per year, based on the consumption you described.
 
Is it really fair to exclude the cost of buying a vehicle from your current annual auto costs? You don't need to buy a $15,000+ membership to take transit.
 
Once again, I read things on here that seem to be speaking about an entirely different city from the one I live in, and it makes me want to reply with another long rambling comment even though I'm beginning to question why any of us bother -- part of me suspects we all have our minds made up on these issues already, and we each only see the things that fit our worldview. This might explain the drastically differing observations on the same city.

It is plain to see that we are experiencing a drain of jobs from the central core,

It is? Funny, I don't see that at all. I see a booming downtown. As a freelance contractor I've been contacted by at least two dozen businesses (design, tech, advertising) over the past year inquiring about potentially hiring me for individual projects, contracts, or full-time work. Almost all of the businesses would have been easily walkable from downtown; another handful were on the subway. Only ONE was outside downtown Toronto, and that was in Oakville. When I walk around I see new businesses of all kinds opening up; retail like furniture stores, grocery stores (formerly a rarity in the downtown area), restaurants, bars, coffee shops, and almost all these with occupied office space above them.

Many of the condos that are going up are being built on land that once employed dozens, if not hundreds of high paying jobs. Massey Fergueson - I know, I know, gone for decades. But what about Addison? Two hundred very high paying jobs were once where 3 condos are going up.

Aren't/weren't these manufacturing and auto sector jobs? Toronto has not been a base for manufacturing for decades. Cities that rely on those industry are cities that are dying -- London? Oshawa? There are no futures there, and Toronto should not emulate them. Those businesses were gone or going long before the condo developers came along. Would you prefer they remain vacant buildings or parking lots? Wait, don't answer that.

At some point, it is going to take more than students and retired teachers to fill the condos downtown......

Funny, I live in a condo and of the half dozen or so people I know on my floor precisely 0 of them are students or retired (teachers or otherwise). Most are professionals in their 30s or 40s. I never knew any students who could afford to purchase a quarter-million-dollar condo while grappling with tuition and students loans (that price being about as cheap as it gets down here these days.)

For those who can walk to work - bully for you. But when you leave that job and end up working in Missisauga, you'll damn well be howling for more expressways or a subway along Eglinton.

Not everyone is a helpless pawn at the hands of their career. I didn't just wake up one morning and notice that I could walk to work, and neither did my wife, or my friends who do the same. Some people are making conscious and deliberate choices to ensure they live where they want, and are consider commute distances as a very important factor when job hunting. When I first moved from a suburban company to work downtown I accepted a job that paid less on paper -- but ended up coming out on top because I was able to ditch my car and all associated costs (nevermind the stresses). I'd never go back unless things got VERY grim indeed.

Speaking of which, regarding Admiral's fantastic commuting experiences, I can only marvel...

As for my time, it takes me 30 minutes to drive to work, and about 35 minutes to drive home, all on relatively open highway driving on Markham Rd., the 401 and DVP.

This can't be the same 401 and DVP highways I spent so much time sitting on. Something drastic must have happened since 2003, because I spent years stuck on those highways attempting to engage in a rather short commute from Yonge & Eligable up to Markham. The occasional good day was overshadowed by the less-than-occasional hellish nightmare commute.

So, my total annual car cost is $4,072. That's not too bad at all

Before I sold it, I carefully tracked the cost of operating my small 5-year-old car for quite a while in 2003, and my total estimate came in just under $9,000 per year, counting insurance, parking, gas, repairs, maintenance, etc. That's after-tax income, of course, and I calculated that I was working January through March simply to pay for my car, which I used almost exclusively to drive to work in. Based on literature I read at the time $7000 to $9000 was about average [PDF] in terms of annual cost of car operation -- and that was when gas was 70 cents per litre. The glory days, I guess.

$200 per year on maintenance also strikes me as enormously optimistic -- you can barely get new brake pads and a tire rotation for that, never mind snow tires, summer tires, oil changes (4 times per year for me). That doesn't count random disasters that happen when you can least afford them, and of course occur more frequently if you skimp on the maintenance.
 
Once again, I read things on here that seem to be speaking about an entirely different city from the one I live in, and it makes me want to reply with another long rambling comment even though I'm beginning to question why any of us bother -- part of me suspects we all have our minds made up on these issues already, and we each only see the things that fit our worldview. This might explain the drastically differing observations on the same city.

But isn't that the point? Everyone has their own point of view. Some are carefully thought out after decades of reasoning; while others are more emotional based. Some people live in a dream world where everyone has to be like them; others have traveled the world and realize people need to get along, warts and all. Imposing one's vision on others is not desirable, or practical.

It is? Funny, I don't see that at all. I see a booming downtown. As a freelance contractor I've been contacted by at least two dozen businesses (design, tech, advertising) over the past year inquiring about potentially hiring me for individual projects, contracts, or full-time work. Almost all of the businesses would have been easily walkable from downtown; another handful were on the subway. Only ONE was outside downtown Toronto, and that was in Oakville. When I walk around I see new businesses of all kinds opening up; retail like furniture stores, grocery stores (formerly a rarity in the downtown area), restaurants, bars, coffee shops, and almost all these with occupied office space above them.

What exactly do you see booming downtown? I see lots of construction cranes, to be sure. I see lots of condos being built downtown. Who exactly is buying them? The retail shops on the ground floor are quaint, but $8 an hour is not going to put food on the table. Those over-priced furniture boutiques on King St. will only be there as long as the 'boom' lasts. Many of the high paying jobs are leaving the city. Not all - many. There is more office development and high tech jobs locating outside of the core - even into the 905 area. People had better be able to walk to their jobs, because they won't even be able to afford a MetroPass at this rate.

Aren't/weren't these manufacturing and auto sector jobs? Toronto has not been a base for manufacturing for decades. Cities that rely on those industry are cities that are dying -- London? Oshawa? There are no futures there, and Toronto should not emulate them. Those businesses were gone or going long before the condo developers came along. Would you prefer they remain vacant buildings or parking lots? Wait, don't answer that.

Many people that depended on General Motors live in the east end of the city, and those that depend on Ford and Chrysler live in the west end. Those are high paying jobs. I'm not suggesting that the 4 or 5 dealerships that used to be on Bay St. (Ontario Chrysler, the AMC dealership, Addison and what was the Ford dealership's name?) belong on the edge of the financial district, but I am lamenting the loss of those high paying jobs. London is a very high growth area. Oshawa, well, GM may be down but she is not out just yet.

Funny, I live in a condo and of the half dozen or so people I know on my floor precisely 0 of them are students or retired (teachers or otherwise). Most are professionals in their 30s or 40s. I never knew any students who could afford to purchase a quarter-million-dollar condo while grappling with tuition and students loans (that price being about as cheap as it gets down here these days.)

There are a lot of students from Asia living in this city. Their parents are footing the bill. Most of them live downtown. There are a lot of condos rented out with students living in them.

Not everyone is a helpless pawn at the hands of their career. I didn't just wake up one morning and notice that I could walk to work, and neither did my wife, or my friends who do the same. Some people are making conscious and deliberate choices to ensure they live where they want, and are consider commute distances as a very important factor when job hunting. When I first moved from a suburban company to work downtown I accepted a job that paid less on paper -- but ended up coming out on top because I was able to ditch my car and all associated costs (nevermind the stresses). I'd never go back unless things got VERY grim indeed.
I think everyone tries to manage their career, but shit happens. I worked at the same company in Scarborough for 10 years, until they closed last year. Now, I work in the west end. Lucky for me, I live in a central location and drive 'against' traffic (although that is having less and less meaning!) I have many clients that I can't keep track of because they keep moving from place to place as they try to get closer to one or the other's job and cut down on the commute.

Speaking of which, regarding Admiral's fantastic commuting experiences, I can only marvel...

Well, I can speak directly to the differences between the DVP commute and the Gardiner commute. I drove to meetings at 16th/Warden on a regular basis and that could be done in 35 minutes, although truth be known I had to allow for 45 - but that is going 'against' traffic.


This can't be the same 401 and DVP highways I spent so much time sitting on. Something drastic must have happened since 2003, because I spent years stuck on those highways attempting to engage in a rather short commute from Yonge & Eligable up to Markham. The occasional good day was overshadowed by the less-than-occasional hellish nightmare commute.

Yonge/Eglinton is a hellish place to commute anywhere, unless by subway north or south, as has been discussed in other threads here. How this city could have allowed one of the biggest intersections in the city to be 4 lanes is criminal!

Before I sold it, I carefully tracked the cost of operating my small 5-year-old car for quite a while in 2003, and my total estimate came in just under $9,000 per year, counting insurance, parking, gas, repairs, maintenance, etc. That's after-tax income, of course, and I calculated that I was working January through March simply to pay for my car, which I used almost exclusively to drive to work in. Based on literature I read at the time $7000 to $9000 was about average [PDF] in terms of annual cost of car operation -- and that was when gas was 70 cents per litre. The glory days, I guess.
If you paid $9,000 a year to drive a car, then you should have traded it in. I pay $8,000 a year and that includes $316 a month for my lease. My car requires an oil change every 8 months (oil life monitor), bi-annual tire rotations, and no other maintenance during the lease itself. (Not sure when the brakes will need looking at - it only has 15k km on it now and the brakes are fine.)
$200 per year on maintenance also strikes me as enormously optimistic -- you can barely get new brake pads and a tire rotation for that, never mind snow tires, summer tires, oil changes (4 times per year for me). That doesn't count random disasters that happen when you can least afford them, and of course occur more frequently if you skimp on the maintenance.

Hint: stay away from the imports. There's a reason Honda and Toyota dealers are expanding their service departments.;)
 

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