[MichaelS]

Now I'm wondering if you've ever actually looked at the master plan. Stampede park is part of the master plan because it's within the Rivers District CRL. The master plan details the revitalization of the areas mostly north and west of the traditional boundaries of the Stampede Grounds which are expected to stay as a fairground. The C+E District is what CMLC is branding the area.

Well there is this section on page 62, under the Urban Design Framework chapter of the Master Plan:

This is further supported by the description of the Culture and Entertainment Character Area definition found on page 115:

I guess that definition is a big vague, maybe it is only meant to be a hub of activity during scheduled events, not just a general area Calgarians would go to. And we don't know the design of the arena until the DP is submitted, but based on this image put out with the press conference annoucement at the end of April, there is a chance the hotel and the two mixed-use buildings will provide this mix of uses described in the Urban Design Framework, that will lead to the activity as outlined in the Character Area definition.

However, it appears that best case scenario, of the 460m stretch of Stampede Trail, we might see some active uses on 75% of one side, and only 25% of the other side.

I am holding out hope we will see some destination mixed-use with ground floor retail per the land use concept on page 81 (we missed the ground floor retail portion on the BMO Centre apparently), but honestly would have liked to have had more than "hope" after committing approximately $1.3 billion in funding to this so far (I stand to be corrected on the $1.3 billion, but my understanding is $800 million for Event Centre and support infrastructure, and $500 million for BMO centre).

Maybe the 7.0 FAR being offered on the Saddledome site will mean it won't stay a surface lot for the entirety, that is the plan afterall given the land use map above. I'd love to see that happen.

Anyway, I will shut up about this now. Just feeling the need to vent that after literally a billion + dollars going towards this, I think we are going to end up in exactly the same spot we were in 2019, but with shinier version of the buildings that were in place then, and maybe a couple extra restaurants and 2-3 more concerts a year. I want nothing more than to be proven wrong, and will gladly eat crow if this area builds out and we get a great district as envisioned, but so far I am not seeing the vision match the execution.

 

[Patrick.1980]

Comparing Oktoberfest to the Stampede grounds is more of an apples to oranges comparison. Oktoberfest is made up of temporary structures and the fair ground is used only for Oktoberfest snd the Christmas market. With 350 million people within a day train trip it’s easy to get 6 million visitors.

 

[CBBarnett]

Comparing Oktoberfest to the Stampede grounds is more of an apples to oranges comparison. Oktoberfest is made up of temporary structures and the fair ground is used only for Oktoberfest snd the Christmas market. With 350 million people within a day train trip it’s easy to get 6 million visitors.

Missing my point - I am critiquing Stampede's land efficiency and operations, not saying that they should have fewer or greater number of attendees. Despite (or enabled by) billions of public investment over the 110 years , Stampede Park is both crowded during the 10-day festival, while completely underutilized the rest of the time. This is the result in not leveraging what they are given, both in their facility designs and choice to prioritize large, also under-utilized event buildings and not put much effort into circulation, quality, efficiency or capacity of using their lands.

I only referenced Oktoberfest grounds for comparison - a similar site size, with a similar focus on an temporary/pop-up annual festivals, but with several times the attendance and traffic. Oktoberfest's grounds (technically the "park" is called Theresienwiese, the event is Oktoberfest; there's other seasonal events in the same space) is an example that you can have a major event grounds with far larger crowds, far higher annual utilization, right in the city centre without a need for ever more land and integrates fairly well into the surround area.

 

[Silence&Motion]

I'd say Stephen Ave is actually more of an "olde tymey themed entertainment district" at the moment with all the old 70s-80s entertainment/culture related buildings like the Glenbow, Art Commons, Olympic Plaza, and Telus Convention Centre

None of the buildings you mentioned are olde tymey or themed. They all just use architecture that was contemporary at the time they were built. Eau Claire was designed around a mishmash of theme park-style restaurants, including the Hard Rock Cafe, that faux-50s diner, the Barley Mill (complete with fake waterwheel attached to the side), and Joey Tomato's.

 

[lemongrab]

Missing my point - I am critiquing Stampede's land efficiency and operations, not saying that they should have fewer or greater number of attendees. Despite (or enabled by) billions of public investment over the 110 years , Stampede Park is both crowded during the 10-day festival, while completely underutilized the rest of the time. This is the result in not leveraging what they are given, both in their facility designs and choice to prioritize large, also under-utilized event buildings and not put much effort into circulation, quality, efficiency or capacity of using their lands.

I only referenced Oktoberfest grounds for comparison - a similar site size, with a similar focus on an temporary/pop-up annual festivals, but with several times the attendance and traffic. Oktoberfest's grounds (technically the "park" is called Theresienwiese, the event is Oktoberfest; there's other seasonal events in the same space) is an example that you can have a major event grounds with far larger crowds, far higher annual utilization, right in the city centre without a need for ever more land and integrates fairly well into the surround area.

I've never been to Munich, but I wonder if you're overselling those grounds? It looks like a massive parking lot without the parking...or maybe more accurately an airport without the planes or a terminal. It certainly looks decent from the outside being surrounded by lots of trees and presumably some form of MUP. But, I wouldn't be surprised if they are bemoaning the fact that Theresienwiese isn't more like Albert Park (Montreal) or Ile Notre Dame (Montreal) where they hold F1 races one weekend but are very nice public parks the rest of the year.

 

[CBBarnett]

I've never been to Munich, but I wonder if you're overselling those grounds? It looks like a massive parking lot without the parking...or maybe more accurately an airport without the planes or a terminal. It certainly looks decent from the outside being surrounded by lots of trees and presumably some form of MUP. But, I wouldn't be surprised if they are bemoaning the fact that Theresienwiese isn't more like Albert Park (Montreal) or Ile Notre Dame (Montreal) where they hold F1 races one weekend but are very nice public parks the rest of the year.

Not saying it’s the top of the mountain to aim - just saying it’s an example of a place that fits lots more activity and people than Stampede Park in the same footprint.

Now that you mentioned it, The ring of trees and integration into the community is far superior to anything Stampede has ever proposed.

I guess what I’m trying to say is I don’t have confidence in the Stampede to pull off what they have been trying to do for decades - create an attractive year round entertainment district. If they were capable of doing so they would have done it already.

That’s why I’m afraid we are going to end up in the 1980s - a bunch of shiny facilities with an under-utilized parking crater that bleeds the vibrancy out of that part of the inner city.

While the Stampede hasn’t demonstrated a capability to get it done, others have - with far greater numbers of people, far better integration to the community.

 

[Chinese_T]

A bit off-topic, but this thread is going to surpass the Telus Sky thread in replies soon and there aren't even renderings yet...

 

[Surrealplaces]

A bit off-topic, but this thread is going to surpass the Telus Sky thread in replies soon and there aren't even renderings yet...

View attachment 492487

View attachment 492488

And the final design hasn't even come out yet, let alone ground breaking lol

 

[doughflow]

I mean.. there were at one time though..

 

[CalgaryTiger]

Professional sport infrastructure is always a saga in this country. I don't know about the US a lot but they seem to be more willing in some places (Vegas) and not willing at all in others (Oakland) to give teams Public money. I really don't know Europe so can't speak at all to that.

 

[trtcttc]

I only referenced Oktoberfest grounds for comparison - a similar site size, with a similar focus on an temporary/pop-up annual festivals, but with several times the attendance and traffic. Oktoberfest's grounds (technically the "park" is called Theresienwiese, the event is Oktoberfest; there's other seasonal events in the same space) is an example that you can have a major event grounds with far larger crowds, far higher annual utilization, right in the city centre without a need for ever more land and integrates fairly well into the surround area.

Do you think weather plays a part in it? And the general city design? If they build a pedestrian friendly, walkable, mixed use area which would be great, I just don't know if it's economically viable for 8 months of the year. The reality is most people drive and most of our festivals and events are in the few summer months. Our downtown population is coming, but still not enough for a lively downtown past 6pm. The weather factor also necessitates more built infrastructure, with large indoor buildings that can be used year round versus temporary structures for special events.

 

[trtcttc]

Professional sport infrastructure is always a saga in this country. I don't know about the US a lot but they seem to be more willing in some places (Vegas) and not willing at all in others (Oakland) to give teams Public money. I really don't know Europe so can't speak at all to that.

It comes down to the haves and have nots. Cities without a team are willing to pay for arenas even in Canada (Videotron in Quebec, MTS in Winnipeg was built years before the Jets moved). Whereas cities with a team, it stops being as "special" and people are hesitant to spend public money. Even in Winnipeg, huge sellout crows when the Jets came back and now they're struggle to fill the arena.

 

[Patrick.1980]

Missing my point - I am critiquing Stampede's land efficiency and operations, not saying that they should have fewer or greater number of attendees. Despite (or enabled by) billions of public investment over the 110 years , Stampede Park is both crowded during the 10-day festival, while completely underutilized the rest of the time. This is the result in not leveraging what they are given, both in their facility designs and choice to prioritize large, also under-utilized event buildings and not put much effort into circulation, quality, efficiency or capacity of using their lands.

I only referenced Oktoberfest grounds for comparison - a similar site size, with a similar focus on an temporary/pop-up annual festivals, but with several times the attendance and traffic. Oktoberfest's grounds (technically the "park" is called Theresienwiese, the event is Oktoberfest; there's other seasonal events in the same space) is an example that you can have a major event grounds with far larger crowds, far higher annual utilization, right in the city centre without a need for ever more land and integrates fairly well into the surround area.

I agree the Stampede could make better use of their land, but my point was that Oktoberfest grounds aren’t an apples to apples comparison because outside of the 18 days of Oktoberfest are the 14 days of Christmas festival, it is a large empty parking lot with nothing happening at all.
The Stampede has various permanent buildings with different events going throughout the year, and thus not really a good comparison. They are two different style of exhibition grounds.

As a side note, Thereseinweise, does not integrate to the community very well IMO. It integrates better than a Stampede Park does, but not by much. When Oktoberfest or the Christmas market is happening the entrances are blocked off save for three or four entrances. The rest of the year there are multiple entrances in and out, but there is only the large, empty lot so nobody uses them.

My apologies for taking this thread off track with a discussion about Oktoberfest, but having lived in Munich for a couple of years, I can honestly say Theresienweise is not a great example to use for comparison.
I can’t think of an exhibition ground/Fairground area in Europe that is a good apples to apples comparison to the Stampede grounds.

 

[Zoom]

Stampede Park is both crowded during the 10-day festival, while completely underutilized the rest of the time.

I only referenced Oktoberfest grounds for comparison - a similar site size, with a similar focus on an temporary/pop-up annual festivals, but with several times the attendance and traffic. Oktoberfest's grounds (technically the "park" is called Theresienwiese, the event is Oktoberfest; there's other seasonal events in the same space) is an example that you can have a major event grounds

But isn’t it the opposite really? The park where Oktoberfest is held is the one that’s under utilized almost all year round. Millions of people drink beer in tents for two weeks and then it’s empty the rest of the year.
Unlike the park in Munich, Stampede Park doesn’t have a focus on temporary, pop-up festivals, outside of the stampede. All of the other events are indoors in permanent buildings. The big 4 building, the agricultural pavilion, the Saddledome and the BMO Centre all the host events throughout the year.
I can see where the grandstand, the rodeo/chuckwagon area, as well as the back lot would be considered underutilized, but for the most part, the grounds as a whole, is busy year-round.

 

[Surrealplaces]

The part of the Stampede grounds that's the most underutilized is the rodeo/chucks area. It's a once a year area, and doesn't handle many people, but takes up close to 1/2 the grounds. There's a bit of a connumdrum, as the rodeo is what drives the Stampede as a festival. The rest of the grounds is used throughout the year, and the Stampede can tweak those areas to get it more efficient.