Best direction for the Green line at this point?

  • Go ahead with the current option of Eau Claire to Lynbrook and phase in extensions.

    Votes: 42 60.0%
  • Re-design the whole system

    Votes: 22 31.4%
  • Cancel it altogether

    Votes: 6 8.6%

  • Total voters
    70
I don't think the bolded part was true. Weren't we only at 60% design costs? Even if the costs were contained, I don't think the project was at a stage to begin construction in that timeframe. (waiting on @accord1999 to provide the correct information.....)
The full details are probably only available in the confidential meetings, but yeah the 60% design plan was only presented in June. It would seem unlikely that any significant contracts would be signed, especially knowing about the major scope change that would need approval not just from Alberta but also Canada. Canada wanted an updated case presented to them by August 15.

 
So for the last week or so, the UCP was saying that their intervention was going to allow a train to be built down to Seton. The premier said as much to the media just yesterday. Today the minister in charge of delivering the project is now saying Shepard. Maybe more. So instead of getting Eau Claire to Lynnwood with the ability to easily build a future extension down to Shepard, the province is apparently going to deliver East Village to Shepard with no possibility of a beltline, downtown or north central extension and still the need for future extensions southbound.

This is why social media is a toxic, toxic tool. I have no political dog in this fight, but they literally said the exact same, THERE IS NOTHING NEW TO REPORT HERE lol. DS: "An engineering firm is going to explore an alternate alignment, how far south can we go"...DD: "will ideally stretch to sheppard and even to the south health campus". Literally the same thing, nothing has changed lol
 
Fair enough. Your comments made me go back and look to where I got that impression. It turned out it was a Rick Bell article talking about building to Seton. In my mind I thought it was a direct quote but re-reading it was Bell's summary of what was said so the UCP's messaging may have been consistent this entire time. Still, I can't be the only one to have made the mistake as the majority of the last few pages of discussion on this forum as well as what it being talked about on social media give a strong impression that people think the UCP are going to build to Seton and the price to do that is ditching the downtown tunnels.
 
Unsurprisingly a dumpster fire with terrible messaging.

Devon Dreeshen is the MAGA guy who was caught drinking in the office right? Definitely the person I want calling the shots on a transit megaproject. But hey thank goodness it's open up the conversation so that we can beat around the bush on this project a little more.


I have no political dog in this fight
An enlightened centrist, eh?
 
Unsurprisingly a dumpster fire with terrible messaging.

Devon Dreeshen is the MAGA guy who was caught drinking in the office right? Definitely the person I want calling the shots on a transit megaproject. But hey thank goodness it's open up the conversation so that we can beat around the bush on this project a little more.



An enlightened centrist, eh?
So you just sit in the weeds, add nothing interesting to the dialogue, and lob a few personal insults. cool.
 
Smith is committed to Calgary's C$ B Green Line LRT as originally intended. Smith has asked an Engineering Company to give them an alternative route.
This is ominous as the Consultant will surgically pick the contracted green line to shreds. 2 or 3 alternative routes will be promoted offering better value for money. A classic ploy to stall further progress in its current mode.
It is easy for a Consultant to critique designs with false praise, "We understand the routing and alignment but that is not how we would have done it!"
There is a lack of transparency over costs for the deletion of 6 stations and 8 kilometres of track and the price increase of C$ 700 M. What was the cost in savings for their deletion, what elements were impacted by applied escalation and what design revisions were mitigated? How did the design review progress from 30% to 90%?
Will Smith be forthcoming when the Green Line will start up again? How long for route alignment studies, geotechnical surveys, proposed northern line station locations, advantages/ disadvantages of using the existing freight rail permanent way etc. etc. etc?
An interesting bunfight awaits: Gondek and Smith will strut their stuff based on desktop data lacking real what-if scenarios and specific information.
Will there be an inquiry into the existing development contract to determine its financial basis?
Was the Contract deployed correct given these circumstances?
Was the development Contractor the correct entity to employ including its design and costing teams?
So many questions related to this megaproject's planning, presentation and expediting. Will Smith and Alberta fare any better?
 
Do you think by next year they will agree on a new alignment and start construction? Or will this planning drag out another 3 years lol? Would they still be able to do work for the non DT stations as they likely wont change the alignment for that part whenever it gets built?

I'm in the architecture field, so not much planning background so I wont weigh in on what is the best way to go forward. I just want the line to go into the SE since I live there so I was excited for the Shepard station being operational in 2027.
You forget the geotechnical studies which will be key to support the alignment. These tasks are inter-dependent with each other and influence design, curvature and running speeds: coupled with planning etc........
 
I don't think the bolded part was true. Weren't we only at 60% design costs? Even if the costs were contained, I don't think the project was at a stage to begin construction in that timeframe. (waiting on @accord1999 to provide the correct information.....)
Design is an issue: why has design taken so long and is, allegedly, stuck at 60%, curious.
 
I think they (the city and the province) won't agree, but construction will start, on the province's plan.

And no, a SE train from Seton to Inglewood ain't going to start until there is assurance on the central section.
Don't be hoodwinked: you overlook what the Province's designs are and expect construction based on what basis, to what alignment and by the same development contractor? What about delay costs, who is responsible for them?
 
The UCP risks stepping in it if they have truly foreclosed on a grade separated line through downtown. There have already been studies that have shown that a mainly cut and cover tunnel is the most viable way to get through downtown given the CP tracks, 7th Ave transit line, traffic congestion, ext.

It's laughable that Smith suggested having the line terminate by the new arena after supposedly critiquing it as a "line to nowhere". I'm sure people in the SE will love having to walk 10 blocks to their office.
 
The UCP risks stepping in it if they have truly foreclosed on a grade separated line through downtown. There have already been studies that have shown that a mainly cut and cover tunnel is the most viable way to get through downtown given the CP tracks, 7th Ave transit line, traffic congestion, ext.

It's laughable that Smith suggested having the line terminate by the new arena after supposedly critiquing it as a "line to nowhere". I'm sure people in the SE will love having to walk 10 blocks to their office.
A couple of kilometres walk will promote a healthy workforce!
 
The 60% designs were presented but I'm not sure that that means things were "stuck" at that point. I recall seeing a couple station renders that were at the 90% iirc.

Based on what I saw and the amount of surrounding work that's been done at each of the station sites (from Crossroads south) I would hazard to guess that more than half of the stations are very close to shovel ready, although I can't speak for the track, tunnels, guide ways in between those stations.

I don't know about any of the design work west of the elbow; certainly a lot more complex design there. And that is the section that the province claims it will "fix" and that is clearly their justification.

Of course all of the stations south and east of the elbow that may be "complete" are designed for low-floor trains. If vehicle type is one of the things that is under review then it could certainly throw those stations back to the drawing boards.

Re: high floor vs low floor: Perhaps as another poster mentioned, one could just take those existing designs and dig the track down a couple feet to accommodate high floor trains, but something tells me it's not that easy; One can't just make up track grade willy-nilly, especially when these stations all have elevation constraints: Crossroads station immediately enters an elevated guideway that needs to maintain a certain elevation over road and track. Highfield station sits right up against a road and associated underpass with clearance requirements. Lynnwood immediately crosses a road at grade after the station head. Almost all of the stations have some at-grade pedestrian crossing to move between platforms. A couple feet of grade change would completely invalidate these designs. I really really hope that the UCP's review doesn't try to change the vehicles.

I think the average person has no idea how much work has gone into this right-of-way; how many ARPs, TOD sites, road alignments, streetscape upgrades, bike paths, public amenities, utility upgrades etc are hinged upon it and have been designed alongside. The risk of invalidating all of this associated work needs to be considered as part of the package of opportunity costs here. We are at serious risk of butchering a ton of associated planning work.

The reality is that this project is much more than just a train that goes some places; for as long as I have been engaged with this project (2015?) One of the stated goals has been place-making, I.e. avoiding the errors of 1980s LRT (looking at you, 36st NE) And creating opportunities for meaningful development around this line. It's the same stated goal as for the arena except there's a lot more tangible work that has been done to actually achieve that at a public level, at a much larger scale, and without the interference of a for-profit "tenant."


And so, It'll be interesting to see how much design work gets thrown out as part of this "review." I could summarize my greatest concern more succinctly and without prior sass: I don't trust a provincial party of rural grievances to properly understand this project, And I don't trust whatever private interests they're pretending are an "independent review" to understand this work either. Owning an abandoned traincar in High River and liking trains is not a qualification.

And to be clear, the narrative of these aforementioned ideologues is just far too transparent: Leverage collective sticker shock, ignore the scope of this project and reposition it as commuter rail, take advantage of rural and suburban voters biases and lack of awareness of urban place-making to dangle a carrot for vote buying. Then, over-emphasize the opportunity cost associated with capital spending while under-emphasizing opportunity cost associated with every other facet of this project and its delay. Use the per kilometer track cost as a talking point while ignoring all of the amenities that are costed in along this section, then extrapolate this per track cost to the rest of the alignment to overestimate the full project and position it as a boondoggle. Come up with an alternative design that looks cheaper on paper but won't actually get built during your tenure; use it primarily as a talking point during political debates. Carefully avoid communicating about what has been "lost" through the value engineering process so that the whole situation looks great on paper. Deflect all criticisms to the municipality. Ignore that inflation exists.

Bonus move: screw over the "radical downtown urbanites " who you despise and deliver some "benefits" to some donors while you are at it.



Anyway, please accept my apologies for being a bit sassy about this, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is a bit suspicious of users who joined the forum primarily to run PR for the stadium deal and now appear to be running PR for the provincial government while standing aggressively on decorum to deflect any criticisms of such.
 
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The 60% designs were presented but I'm not sure that that means things were "stuck" at that point. I recall seeing a couple station renders that were at the 90% iirc.

Based on what I saw and the amount of surrounding work that's been done at each of the station sites (from Crossroads south) I would hazard to guess that more than half of the stations are very close to shovel ready, although I can't speak for the track, tunnels, guide ways in between those stations.

I don't know about any of the design work west of the elbow; certainly a lot more complex design there. And that is the section that the province claims it will "fix" and that is clearly their justification.

Of course all of the stations south and east of the elbow that may be "complete" are designed for low-floor trains. If vehicle type is one of the things that is under review then it could certainly throw those stations back to the drawing boards.

Re: high floor vs low floor: Perhaps as another poster mentioned, one could just take those existing designs and dig the track down a couple feet to accommodate high floor trains, but something tells me it's not that easy; One can't just make up track grade willy-nilly, especially when these stations all have elevation constraints: Crossroads station immediately enters an elevated guideway that needs to maintain a certain elevation over road and track. Highfield station sits right up against a road and associated underpass with clearance requirements. Lynnwood immediately crosses a road at grade after the station head. Almost all of the stations have some at-grade pedestrian crossing to move between platforms. A couple feet of grade change would completely invalidate these designs. I really really hope that the UCP's review doesn't try to change the vehicles.

I think the average person has no idea how much work has gone into this right-of-way; how many ARPs, TOD sites, road alignments, streetscape upgrades, bike paths, public amenities, utility upgrades etc are hinged upon it and have been designed alongside. The risk of invalidating all of this associated work needs to be considered as part of the package of opportunity costs here. We are at serious risk of butchering a ton of associated planning work.

The reality is that this project is much more than just a train that goes some places; for as long as I have been engaged with this project (2015?) One of the stated goals has been place-making, I.e. avoiding the errors of 1980s LRT (looking at you, 36st NE) And creating opportunities for meaningful development around this line. It's the same stated goal as for the arena except there's a lot more tangible work that has been done to actually achieve that at a public level, at a much larger scale, and without the interference of a for-profit "tenant."


And so, It'll be interesting to see how much design work gets thrown out as part of this "review." I could summarize my greatest concern more succinctly and without prior sass: I don't trust a provincial party of rural grievances to properly understand this project, And I don't trust whatever private interests they're pretending are an "independent review" to understand this work either. Owning an abandoned traincar in High River and liking trains is not a qualification.

And to be clear, the narrative of these aforementioned ideologues is just far too transparent: Leverage collective sticker shock, ignore the scope of this project and reposition it as commuter rail, take advantage of rural and suburban voters biases and lack of awareness of urban place-making to dangle a carrot for vote buying. Then, over-emphasize the opportunity cost associated with capital spending while under-emphasizing opportunity cost associated with every other facet of this project and its delay. Use the per kilometer track cost as a talking point while ignoring all of the amenities that are costed in along this section, then extrapolate this per track cost to the rest of the alignment to overestimate the full project and position it as a boondoggle. Come up with an alternative design that looks cheaper on paper but won't actually get built during your tenure; use it primarily as a talking point during political debates. Carefully avoid communicating about what has been "lost" through the value engineering process so that the whole situation looks great on paper. Deflect all criticisms to the municipality. Ignore that inflation exists.

Bonus move: screw over the "radical downtown urbanites " who you despise and deliver some "benefits" to some donors while you are at it.



Anyway, please accept my apologies for being a bit sassy about this, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is a bit suspicious of users who joined the forum primarily to run PR for the stadium deal and now appear to be running PR for the provincial government while standing aggressively on decorum to deflect any criticisms of such.
30% and 60% designs were accelerated for presentation in January. Not all of the 60% were complete as some of the 30% still required design info – obvious compounding issue. 60% design is the acid test - all affected authorities approve or otherwise before moving onto 90%. 90% designs are basically ready to issue for construction - has 90% been reached?

What you have seen and the surrounding work at each of the station sites are 2 different things. The designs submitted at any of the % phases is for the entire LRT design.

You cannot just take an existing designs and dig the track down a couple of feet to accommodate high floor trains – track alignment is necessary to maintain the timetable

The average person has no idea how much work has gone into this right of way – it is driven by the track alignment which dictates speeds. You are correct that this associated work needs to be considered as part of the package of opportunity costs here.

This project is much more than just a train that goes some places – why can certain parties not appreciate this?

If design work gets thrown out as part of this "review" then it effectively means a major re-design by another Consultant (per Smith) and wasted time. Who retains ownership of the original current design? It boils down to opinions on whether city centre tunneling was a valid option. Comments about flooding etc. demonstrate a lack of basic tunneling knowledge.
 

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