Best direction for the Green line at this point?

  • Go ahead with the current option of Eau Claire to Lynbrook and phase in extensions.

    Votes: 41 60.3%
  • Re-design the whole system

    Votes: 22 32.4%
  • Cancel it altogether

    Votes: 5 7.4%

  • Total voters
    68
It might be politicized as of late, but ultimately the Green Line's problems comes from it going over-budget so much and predate the UCP government. If the Green Line was anywhere close to the original 40 km plan (even Beddington-Shepard) and where construction had already started by 2020 or earlier, it probably would be treated like the Valley Line in Edmonton.
 
I’ll chime in on this one. I think what’s really bothersome about this project is the whole back and forth and redesign process. How many times this project went back to the drawing board? Like...10+? I’ve been watching closely between the Green Line and the Valley Line in Edmonton. To be honest, I am utterly stunned how painful the Calgary project has been evolving over the years. Edmonton may have a cheaper line to construct starting this year, but there hasn’t been much on the redesign side. Their project is flying compare to ours. It’s painful. I am just about to lose all hope that the one for Calgary will ever take off at all.
 
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Edmonton is building the line with all the compromises Calgary rejected which caused most of the cost escalations. Heck, they even had a geotech problem, when they realized they hadn't mapped all the coal mines they wanted to tunnel near!
 
Although the project has been dogged by so many "re-assessments", it has been (mostly) shovel ready since the UCP took office. It's a bit disingenuous to say it's entirely the city's fault or the province's fault. I do have to say a major misleading point of this project has been that the entire 40km was to be built in the original budget. I don't believe we were ever supposed to be under the impression that the entirety of the line would be built in one go, and this was likely a huge messaging mistake by the city. Finalizing the route non-withstanding. None of our other lines were built like that, and neither is Edmonton's Valley Line. And ya... How the hell are we supposed to get a tunnel under the river AND 40km within that same budget??? I really just want this thing built, and I think that the first phase was good enough to get that ball rolling, even if it "wasn't perfect". The city has spent an immense amount of time and resource smoothing out the details for this project, and placating to (imo too many) peoples concerns, with some actually really good compromises. Incredibly disappointing news that it's being delayed from starting construction, and yes it is absolutely the provincial government's fault in this circumstance.
 
Although the project has been dogged by so many "re-assessments", it has been (mostly) shovel ready since the UCP took office. It's a bit disingenuous to say it's entirely the city's fault or the province's fault. I do have to say a major misleading point of this project has been that the entire 40km was to be built in the original budget. I don't believe we were ever supposed to be under the impression that the entirety of the line would be built in one go, and this was likely a huge messaging mistake by the city.

The big report from December 2015 does suggest strongly that the Green Line was to be done in single stage. Note that even if the full funding wasn't available, the "core" of the Green Line was Beddington-Shepard. Nobody had considered something as short as the eventual Stage 1 because 16th Ave isn't a useful terminus not matter what they say today. The claim that 16th Ave will be one of the busiest stations is more an indictment of how the SE segment goes through a lot of industrial wasteland with little ridership.


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Finalizing the route non-withstanding. None of our other lines were built like that, and neither is Edmonton's Valley Line.

True, but none of those other projects got anywhere near as much money (even accounting for inflation and GDP increases). I think the two phases of the Valley Line combined cost about $4.5B. Based on estimates given out by the City on future extensions, the complete 40 km Green Line will now be in the $8.5B+ range.

And I think the Green Line probably only got that much funding commitment because it was promising so much track and would solve the two main transit issues in Calgary:

1) Relieve the overcrowded Centre Street N bus corridor, which Stage 1 not only does nothing for, the new river crossing will likely make congestion far worse.
2) Improve service to the Deep SE, which it just barely does (if another $20M/year of new bus services are added).
_
I really just want this thing built, and I think that the first phase was good enough to get that ball rolling, even if it "wasn't perfect".

And it was rolling, until 2019 when the planners had to admit that the deep tunnel option was too expensive and they had to make another significant change (reverting to a poorly rated river crossing) and delay. And I suspect that even with those changes, the City isn't certain that it has enough money to cross the river.
 

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Yeah - I still don't entirely understand how the central north section ended up out of control - I suspect utilities and wanted to maintain extra road capacity requiring additional property acquisition, but I don't remember seeing adequate explanations.

And yeah, high level estimates be high level estimates! This one grew as we added features (more underground stations is one), as we investigated ground condition (worse than expected), as the route was shifted to stop neighbourhoods from complaining (hello north Ramsay! It would have been cheaper to just expropriate all of north Ramsay!). The city also chose to clean up an environmental liability as part of the project instead of securing the cheapest land for the maintenance centre.

At every stage the city added features to assuage critics (less road crossings, more elevated track, more tunnel, moving what will need to be the largest station by platform size (the new arena) underground). From the outside it seems the project team's communication back to council on the costs versus benefits, and other options to meet goals in a different way was minimal at best. Decisions were made in isolation instead as one coherrent whole which led the city down several path dependencies in interest of getting work starting sooner.

What is clear to me is that this council, and who they trust to manage large projects, has let the city down now on two efforts: the greenline and the Olympic bid.

That doesn't mean the Green Line should be thrown out and restarted, but a quick as possible CBA on different features needs to be done to make the right calls by the new council in the fall/January, and a sharing as much information as possible needs to happen on contracting strategy. Then the province needs to get out of the way.
 
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Yeah - I still don't entirely understand how the central north section ended up out of control - I suspect utilities and wanted to maintain extra road capacity requiring additional property acquisition, but I don't remember seeing adequate explanations.

Agreed, there's been a lot of focus on the downtown problems, but the NC section has also seen a major escalation in costs. Out of personal curiosity, I read the reports that informed the selection of Centre Street for the NC alignment and they were estimating $50M/km for an at-grade line (~$500M in total) but it's now over $200M/km. That's a major factor in causing Stage 1 to be so short but nobody has explained why.
 
Even $50m/km is way higher than way lesser but comparable projects (Edmonton’s Valley Line per example). 200 is outright insanity.
 
Yeah, I would be really interested in seeing why the NC component is so much more damn expensive compared to initial predictions. That seems waaaaay too much for an at-grade line unless the cost for ROW acquisition is that expensive.

Looking at sataltie images, I figure the city needs to gain ROW on either side of the street between 16 Ave up to McKnight Bv.
 
Yeah, I would be really interested in seeing why the NC component is so much more damn expensive compared to initial predictions. That seems waaaaay too much for an at-grade line unless the cost for ROW acquisition is that expensive.

Looking at sataltie images, I figure the city needs to gain ROW on either side of the street between 16 Ave up to McKnight Bv.
I remember counting the properties all the way up - even taking the front row of houses and rebuilding the street shouldn’t get anywhere close to that.
 
I believe one of the main reasons is that the cost must factor in land acquisition for a large number of properties along Centre St even though most of that won't be required. My understanding is that essentially the City requires a foot or two of people's properties all along Centre St to ensure the right-of-way is an appropriate width. 99% of people are likely to make a deal with the City of Calgary and pocket some cash to say goodbye to a small slice of their property that will end up as sidewalk but in the event they don't the City would have to expropriate the entire property. Long story short the contingency budget for this is huge as it assumes expropriation of every single property until land starts to be acquired and that can't happen until detailed design is complete which won't happen until the contract to build is awarded.
 
Agreed, there's been a lot of focus on the downtown problems, but the NC section has also seen a major escalation in costs. Out of personal curiosity, I read the reports that informed the selection of Centre Street for the NC alignment and they were estimating $50M/km for an at-grade line (~$500M in total) but it's now over $200M/km. That's a major factor in causing Stage 1 to be so short but nobody has explained why.
Where is the $200M/km coming from for the NC corridor? Do you mean that's their estimate for the portion not yet planned for construction (i.e. 16th Ave north) or the part that is planned (16th Ave south to include bridge) or the original wild plan of deep subway tunnels to 16 Ave?

Yeah - I still don't entirely understand how the central north section ended up out of control - I suspect utilities and wanted to maintain extra road capacity requiring additional property acquisition, but I don't remember seeing adequate explanations.

And yeah, high level estimates be high level estimates! This one grew as we added features (more underground stations is one), as we investigated ground condition (worse than expected), as the route was shifted to stop neighbourhoods from complaining (hello north Ramsay! It would have been cheaper to just expropriate all of north Ramsay!). The city also chose to clean up an environmental liability as part of the project instead of securing the cheapest land for the maintenance centre.

At every stage the city added features to assuage critics (less road crossings, more elevated track, more tunnel, moving what will need to be the largest station by platform size (the new arena) underground). From the outside it seems the project team's communication back to council on the costs versus benefits, and other options to meet goals in a different way was minimal at best. Decisions were made in isolation instead as one coherrent whole which led the city down several path dependencies in interest of getting work starting sooner.

What is clear to me is that this council, and who they trust to manage large projects, has let the city down now on two efforts: the greenline and the Olympic bid.

That doesn't mean the Green Line should be thrown out and restarted, but a quick as possible CBA on different features needs to be done to make the right calls by the new council in the fall/January, and a sharing as much information as possible needs to happen on contracting strategy. Then the province needs to get out of the way.
I agree with your assessment - the Greenline is a story of scope-creep and attempts to "have your cake and eat it to" all over the place. Checks and balances to manage these things weren't effective or lost effectiveness as the project dragged on.

On the local engagement side weird, expensive choices were made to appease small groups of stakeholders (North Ramsay) and on the larger-scale political gamesmanship (give both North and South a bit of what they want to build enough support to do any of it). Provincial meddling further exacerbated this process creating more spin, delays and politics in an already politically captured process.

A weird thing for me over the past years was the bizarre amount of power in the process individuals seemed to have. From those three politically connected old guys who got a special Council meeting just for them, to individual homeowners and landowners re-routing the route like in Ramsay, the whole thing had a weird amount of specific hands touching the conversation. I don't know if this is normal for Canadian transit projects but it certainly didn't seem to help.

All of this politics rests on a shaky foundation (by international standards) of more expensive, less effective transit infrastructure delivery in local, national and North American contexts.

A key problem with a political process that is so easily manipulated by vested, current stakeholders and individuals is that the real trade-offs - the ones that could have materially changed the cost or scope - couldn't really seem to be really considered. Consider two examples for which is cheaper. Both create an equally fast and effective LRT system:
  1. LRT added to Centre Street at grade, removing car lanes. To appease some current stakeholders, land is expropriated to allow road to be widened again. This cost is added to the LRT project budget.
  2. LRT added to Centre Street at grade, removing car lanes. The roads department is free to add expropriation and expansion of Centre Street to a future projects list where it get ranked and sorted with all other roads investments. Spoiler alert: vehicle capacity would never be prioritized again on this route so the expansion project would never happen.
Want a cheap, fast and effective transit for all 40km? Easy - get rid of all car access/expansion but keep the route at-grade and give it green light priority at every intersection. Make all funding conditional on zero expropriation of private land and 100% transit priority. Perhaps that's a bit harsh for a real-world example, but I think the principle of it is clear enough.

If we can't stomach the horror of transit being so obviously prioritized in a transit project, go the grade separated route with tiny automated trains, small stations and high speeds (Canada Line style). Yeah it might have capacity issues in a decade or two, but in the meantime you have 100,000 new riders with political capital of their own to help rally the next multi-billion dollar funding tranche. Play the political long game but do it on transit's terms.

In summary, the problem with transit in this city - which the Greenline is a key example of - is it's never actually about transit at all. It's about politics to mitigate the impact of transit to drivers. It's about the politics to pit one area against each other. Or it's the politics to pit one tier of government against another (funny that ring road projects never do this).
 
Where is the $200M/km coming from for the NC corridor? Do you mean that's their estimate for the portion not yet planned for construction (i.e. 16th Ave north) or the part that is planned (16th Ave south to include bridge) or the original wild plan of deep subway tunnels to 16 Ave?
For the part from 16th Avenue North to the original terminus in Panorama Hills. I used the $200M/km figure based on two primary sources.

The May 2017 meeting when the details of Stage 1 was presented, a question was asked about costs for extensions to 96th Avenue and North Pointe.


Additional details on possible extensions were reported in the Transportation and Transit meeting from March 2019 and included general estimates about their price tags. It backs the $2+ billion dollar figure for 16th-North Pointe.

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