[darwink]

As someone else said, these conversations should've been happening behind closed doors in the spring.

I'm not sure the Mayor was playing the unsaid, undefined role, both in working around the lines with the Green-line board and delivery team after learning of the scope cut 'our partners, and I are surprised of this. We need a more radical option to come with the proposal so we can choose to make tradeoffs' and working with the province more informally and continuously.

With $1.5 billion+ on the table, you'd think there would be fast friendships between the Mayor's office and the Minister's office back room figuring out a deal.

This problem comes back around to, I don't think the Mayor 100% embraces or has the skill set for where the Mayor's power and influence comes from in a weak Mayor system.

 

[lemongrab]

I'm not sure the Mayor was playing the unsaid, undefined role, both in working around the lines with the Green-line board and delivery team after learning of the scope cut 'our partners, and I are surprised of this. We need a more radical option to come with the proposal so we can choose to make tradeoffs' and working with the province more informally and continuously.

With $1.5 billion+ on the table, you'd think there would be fast friendships between the Mayor's office and the Minister's office back room figuring out a deal.

This problem comes back around to, I don't think the Mayor 100% embraces or has the skill set for where the Mayor's power and influence comes from in a weak Mayor system.

I wonder if things also got hung up on procedural issues...the Green Law Bylaw is pretty explicit that the mandate can only be changed by direction from council. So reconsidering the prescribed alignment from 4th to Eau Claire may have been impossible without an official and public council vote.

I believe council direction had previously dictated that proceeding with contracts for 4th to Shephard had to wait on feasibility/budget confirmation for the DT tunnel...which makes some sense if you've declared that the tunnel is the one and only option and because the whole project depends on it. But we know that doesn't have to be true.

As usual, they seem to have prioritized the tunnel over the project. The better option would have been to green light 4th to Shephard and direct GLB to reconsider all possible DT alignments. Which doesn't necessarily cancel the tunnel, but we'd finally get a proper evaluation of tunnel vs. other options (including other tunnel options *couch 1st St SW*). Politically I think you're offsetting the bad news of partial delay with the good news of true ground breaking.

And really this gets you to effectively the same place as the Lynnwood compromise. EC-Lynnwood until extension vs. 4th-Shephard until extension. But maybe they were scared it would give the UCP the chance to kill the tunnel...which happened anyways...

In this alternate timeline I wonder if it might have also motivated a 6th/9th Ave BRT enhancement (imagining an interim route from 4th St SE 'quickly' looping through DT like Max Purple)

 

[Surrealplaces]

 

[CalgaryTiger]

So the issue with elevated is the slope. I mean, I'm a Nenshi guy but you can always elevate it before getting to 4th Street SE station and go over the CP, isn't it already elevated in Inglewood Ramsay? And you could also just go under the CP tracks.

I would advise him not to declare it dead, because if it lives he'll be the one who said it couldn't be done. I would advise him to attack the UCP's tendency to govern by jerking the Alberta joystick all over the place. It hurts business confidence (renewables) and hurts individual voter confidence (people who use healthcare, send their kids to schools, and try to get around the province). She governs like she's still on the radio just trying things out. This isn't the radio Danielle, this is people's lives.

 

[darwink]

She govern's like she's still on the radio just trying things out. This isn't the radio Danielle, this is people's lives.

This is a great summation.

 

[lemongrab]

So the issue with elevated is the slope. I mean, I'm a Nenshi guy but you can always elevate it before getting to 4th Street SE station and go over the CP, isn't it already elevated in Inglewood Ramsay? And you could also just go under the CP tracks.

It's elevated over Blackfoot and 26 Ave station, but essentially comes to grade for Ramsay station (as 12 St already kinda trenches underneath).

It feels like there should be a grade advantage as it crosses the Elbow, but it does not relative to the CP tracks. I think the heavy tracks might even be a meter or so higher than what feels like flat street level running parallel on either 9 Ave or 11 Ave.

The cheapskate way to cross the tracks to EV is to piggyback the 5th/6th St underpass. I believe that was originally planned for 5th but changed to 6th...but the change was likely based on Green Line and/or arena assumptions at the time, which very well may have changed. Actually it's probably because the arena scope killed 5th St out to 5A St, so 6th makes more sense for the road and wouldn't really work for the train.

But I'd way rather an interim terminus in the beltline anyways, as it gets you pretty much as close to 7th Ave as any early crossing in the east would, while keeping your options open for a permanent solution.

 

[Always_Biking]

I Didn’t realize there was an issue with height over the CP tracks. To me elevated seems like a no brainer if underground is too costly.
Also, I’m sure there a solution for getting the height needed. Start the elevation earlier in the Beltline?

 

[whatchyyc]

Man if only there was an example of elevated rail crossing a freight mainline to access downtown, that would be so nice

 

[whatchyyc]

Rough google maps measuring gives 500m for the ramp from 11th street to the CP line. The same distance from the SE up to 4 St station would start at the Elbow river bridge

 

[Duck Lightning]

How many floors is that relative to buildings that would be next to it? 5-6 floors?

 

[CalgaryTiger]

You could be at the westend height between 4th Street SE and 1st Street SE, well before even 1st Street SW. So you could have an at-grade 4th Street Station, cross 4th Street SE, and be above traffic on Macleod. Sure you lose vehicle access to 3rd Street but honestly does that really matter?

Nenshi is not correct to be saying elevated is off the table.

 

[lemongrab]

I Didn’t realize there was an issue with height over the CP tracks. To me elevated seems like a no brainer if underground is too costly.
Also, I’m sure there a solution for getting the height needed. Start the elevation earlier in the Beltline?

Here's some interesting info from a 2006 study:

So if the CP crossing has to be 12-14 meters you have to roughly triple the above

 

[Joborule]

Yeah, that part is confusing to me. Why couldn't the elevation climb start immediately by the Event Centre station? Quick Google Maps distance from 5 ST SE to 1 ST SW gives 1km. He said you would have to start from 17th Ave S to get the required clearance, which would be the distance of ~650m. And he said he preferred the elevated alignment. So what were the issues if that was considered and found to not be feasible? Because if that's still true today, then how in the world is the UCP gonna figure this out with shorter distance to get to Jim Gray's City Hall?

 

[darwink]

Elevated was taken off the table by adjacent land owners, who expressed that the 'tax shift' from downtown businesses to other businesses would be quite bad if their buildings were devalued further by adjacent elevated rail. This was in the 2016-17 context where that was a huge concern for the City. It is not a technical issue.

 

[lemongrab]

January 2004 Study realized DT was complicated and that a dedicated study was needed

but they still came up with a few neat ideas: (can anyone speculate what the different dashed lines might represent?)

The one-way loop on 5th/6th is kinda fun...it's unclear if they intended the DT parts to be underground or not. The idea is dead by the next report, but it's an interesting approach, particularly for crossing Macleods at grade.

So that's 2004. Gonna delve into the Feb 2006 report next. I know lots of this stuff has been posted before, but it's interesting to revisit again what "studied to death" actually looked like with the current context