FCC1982
Active Member
This is a pretty solid option IMO.
Makes use of the CPR ROW and if extended west could possibly increase the incentive to build on the vacant lots beside the tracks.
- Thread starter Surrealplaces
- Start date
Makes use of the CPR ROW and if extended west could possibly increase the incentive to build on the vacant lots beside the tracks.
jhappy77
Active Member
The most challenging part of connecting the SE to N corridor is going from 7th Ave to the Arena. But it would be stupid for either the N or SE lines to not have a transfer station at 7 Ave, so if they both need to go to 7 Ave anyways, connecting the two is really not that much additional work or cost all things considered. If they are separate, you also get permanently increased operating costs from needing separate garages for the rolling stock.
ByeByeBaby
Active Member
You don't need anything that complicated; here's 1st St (north is to the right):
1st St becomes transit/ped only (with bikes if room, but I'm not sure there would be) between 9th Ave and 7th Ave. Bus stops between 8th and 9th aves, both sides available for loading and time points. Through buses can pass along the tracks. Between 7th and 8th aves, the west lanes are through bus - one southbound and one northbound. The east center lane is the stub tracks at a station, and the eastmost lane is used to expand the pedestrian realm to handle the station and associated fixtures. The only slightly weird thing is when northbound buses meet a reversing southbound train, but they could put a signal to stop buses back of the switch; if professional transit drivers are the only users I'm not too worried.
The same thing could be done for a north leg of the green line, on the other side of 7th Ave; the train would come down the Centre Street Bridge, go one block east on 3rd ave (where there would be a Chinatown station), and then do the mirror of this setup, with buses stopping between 5th and 6th Ave (which could also maintain access to the Suncor parkade). Anyone wanting to go NC-SE would have to basically just cross the street, which would be a small hassle, but would avoid the problems associated with LRT lines crossing. The lines could be joined up as part of the work when an 8th Ave subway is built.
1st St becomes transit/ped only (with bikes if room, but I'm not sure there would be) between 9th Ave and 7th Ave. Bus stops between 8th and 9th aves, both sides available for loading and time points. Through buses can pass along the tracks. Between 7th and 8th aves, the west lanes are through bus - one southbound and one northbound. The east center lane is the stub tracks at a station, and the eastmost lane is used to expand the pedestrian realm to handle the station and associated fixtures. The only slightly weird thing is when northbound buses meet a reversing southbound train, but they could put a signal to stop buses back of the switch; if professional transit drivers are the only users I'm not too worried.
The same thing could be done for a north leg of the green line, on the other side of 7th Ave; the train would come down the Centre Street Bridge, go one block east on 3rd ave (where there would be a Chinatown station), and then do the mirror of this setup, with buses stopping between 5th and 6th Ave (which could also maintain access to the Suncor parkade). Anyone wanting to go NC-SE would have to basically just cross the street, which would be a small hassle, but would avoid the problems associated with LRT lines crossing. The lines could be joined up as part of the work when an 8th Ave subway is built.
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
Isn't the issue with this otherwise great idea that the trains are too long to fit on a single block? Operating 2-car trains means a length of 84 metres, too long for one block. i don't see them going down to 1-car trains. Cutting off Stephen Ave isn't an option I want explored either.
Where this could work?
Macleod Trail, with an extended ROW on the east side of Macleod under the CPKC tracks? In the way is an Enmax building at the substation south of the tracks and a non descript one story building north of the tracks. The block is long enough to accommodate the 2-car train. One not so minor issue with this... you're still dumping passengers at City Hall Station.
dazzlingdave88
Active Member
Great question....Sadly I don't think the value of a human life makes it very far into the calculation. From the best that I could find out, a high end estimate of the value of a human life is $10 million. We've had close to 100 people killed by the C-Train since 1981. Roughly 2/3 were accidents. $650 million since 1981.
That doesn't include associated costs, such as impact on families, C-Train driver, witnesses and first responders. As well as lost worker productivity from delays caused throughout the system. It also doesn't predict future costs associated with more deaths. I'd imagine the rate of deaths each year would increase with more at grade lines and more population in Calgary.
Is that alone worth tunneling? I'm not sure.
Isn't 84 metres exactly the maximum size though, and why this vehicle length was chosen, given the future plans to run on Centre St N where the stops will be on short blocks between avenues?
darwink
Senior Member
IIRC originally the underground stations were going to be ~120m, to approach similar capacity as the existing 125m planned max for the red line. Over time, part of the value engineering was cutting the stations down to two car trains.
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
I get just under 84 metres for that block. So it is possible.
I still don't see them dead-ending the line at 7th Ave, even though it would only be a short transfer to take the dead-ended north section on the other side of 7th.
Red Star
Active Member
Thanks for posting this.
Based on simple calculations:
1. A four car high-floor train can accommodate 724 passengers and comes in at 104m in length.
2. A two car low-floor train can accommodate 576 passengers and comes in at 84m in length.
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
"With work on a new downtown entry underway, Mayor Gondek said she’s concerned the province will bypass public consultation.
“My incredible concern is that whatever work they are doing with their new consultant, when are people going to weigh in on it? When are property owners going to weigh in on it? When are businesspeople going to say this does or doesn’t work for us?” Mayor Gondek said.
“When is the public at large going to be able to say, ‘Hold on. That’s not what we were expecting.’ So, I have no idea what that looks like.”
I mean I'm all for letting people have their say but at this point just let the experts tell us what they recommend and lets get on with it. Underground is obviously the best for the long-term but that ship has sailed. Give us the next best option.
"Alberta Transportation and Economic Corridors Minister Devin Dreeshen said that the next working group meeting is Oct. 28. The sides are continuing to hammer out a downtown alignment, and the cost of different options...
Dreeshen said they’re looking at fully at-grade solutions, fully elevated options and a combination. They’re even looking at where they enter the downtown, he said."
Not to defend Devin but they are looking at options, whether there will be a quasi-public pick of options I don't think so. Present the options and then tell me why what you picked was best.
“My incredible concern is that whatever work they are doing with their new consultant, when are people going to weigh in on it? When are property owners going to weigh in on it? When are businesspeople going to say this does or doesn’t work for us?” Mayor Gondek said.
“When is the public at large going to be able to say, ‘Hold on. That’s not what we were expecting.’ So, I have no idea what that looks like.”
I mean I'm all for letting people have their say but at this point just let the experts tell us what they recommend and lets get on with it. Underground is obviously the best for the long-term but that ship has sailed. Give us the next best option.
"Alberta Transportation and Economic Corridors Minister Devin Dreeshen said that the next working group meeting is Oct. 28. The sides are continuing to hammer out a downtown alignment, and the cost of different options...
Dreeshen said they’re looking at fully at-grade solutions, fully elevated options and a combination. They’re even looking at where they enter the downtown, he said."
Not to defend Devin but they are looking at options, whether there will be a quasi-public pick of options I don't think so. Present the options and then tell me why what you picked was best.
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ahuch
Active Member
That just sounds like they don't have any interest in connecting green line to the north segment. Lol.
MichaelS
Senior Member
Yeah, the mayor's criticism for lack of engagement seems strange. Where was the engagement when the City was hacking away at the scope, removing stations, etc....
lemongrab
Active Member
I feel like I've seen fully at-grade mentioned quite a few times, which seems odd given the CPKC tracks. Perhaps this does mean terminating on 10th ave further west?
Also interesting to wonder how they define 'downtown'. I'd wonder if that meant crossing the CP tracks at/before the Elbow River, except that doesn't work with their grand central station
Would an underpass count as "fully at grade" if it's open at the top, and they are motivated to not call it "underground", even though it technically is?