MichaelS

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I don't normally create threads for suburban projects, unless they are part of a larger masterplan like Trinity Hills or West District, however the scale of this DP warrants one. It is located here in the Kincora / Sage Hill area. An area that already has a large number of suburban apartments/condos when you look around, but granted in a pretty suburban setting with some massive roads around there.

Here is the link to the DP:
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There are further elevation details in the downloadable plans if anyone is interested.
 
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I don't normally normally create threads for suburban projects, unless they are part of a larger masterplan like Trinity Hills or West District, however the scale of this DP warrants one. It is located here in the Kincora / Sage Hill area. An area that already has a large number of suburban apartments/condos when you look around, but granted in a pretty suburban setting with some massive roads around there.

Here is the link to the DP:
View attachment 508017

View attachment 508018
View attachment 508019
View attachment 508020


There are further elevation details in the downloadable plans if anyone is interested.
Great location for this. Some great density in this part of Kincora and the other side of Symons Valley Parkway in Sage/Nolan Hills
 
Square building meets bizarre high speed curve-linear road layouts and 8-lane, 50m+ wide mega-arterials. So much weird, unusable landscaping that abuts the high speed and unpleasant roads rather than function as an amenity. Sure they shoe-horned in a putting green and a dog run but .... yikes.

Will be a weird one if built - and I fully acknowledge many of my critiques are not this development's fault but the outcomes of traffic engineering madness of this era of arterial building.

This one triggered a tangential rant - has anyone ever looked closely at Sage Hill? I don't go there often - I got to say from the Google view Sage Hill's retail cluster just to the north of this site might be our best example of excessive car-orientation while still having the most token veneer of pretending it's a walkable. It's one of the most bizarre mashups I have ever seen. Hell, it makes West Hills look walkable by comparison.

For a small example of just how insane this place is designed, this is the Sage Hill Library, only 120m to the north of this tower development - fantastic library access by Calgary standards.

Let's look closer. Note it's entrance is tucked below grade somehow with fences. Also note that of those 120m, over half that distance is crossing arterial roadways and ramps. And of course - no sidewalk for the rest, but we did have the sense to randomly add extra lanes, lay-bys and all sorts of unmarked asphalt because ....
1695266979595.png

I mean try to follow this curb line. And this isn't a redevelopment - someone actually planned this and built it like this!

What are we even doing here? What's the point of any of this - an unmarked 2.5 - 3 lane southbound arterial, marked parking, but also randomly changing parking lane widths etc. I need to know how this is possible to have occurred - did anyone along the way realize how bizarre this all is?

1695267335680.png


So if we are wondering where these 600+ units of high density might enjoy a nice walk to - the answer is here.

The development itself is fine I guess? But yikes - adding people to this failure of city building isn't as much of a win.
 
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The density is good, but it feels like density for the sake of density, or even more like a developer wanting to plant 324 units in the middle of nowhere. I’d rather this was being built in West District or U/D where the area is better laid out, or the Brentwood LRT parking lot.
Aside from that it’s much better than the typical suburban build.
 
Square building meets bizarre high speed curve-linear road layouts and 8-lane, 50m+ wide mega-arterials. So much weird, unusable landscaping that abuts the high speed and unpleasant roads rather than function as an amenity. Sure they shoe-horned in a putting green and a dog run but .... yikes.

Will be a weird one if built - and I fully acknowledge many of my critiques are not this development's fault but the outcomes of traffic engineering madness of this era of arterial building.

This one triggered a tangential rant - has anyone ever looked closely at Sage Hill? I don't go there often - I got to say from the Google view Sage Hill's retail cluster just to the north of this site might be our best example of excessive car-orientation while still having the most token veneer of pretending it's a walkable. It's one of the most bizarre mashups I have ever seen. Hell, it makes West Hills look walkable by comparison.

For a small example of just how insane this place is designed, this is the Sage Hill Library, only 120m to the north of this tower development - fantastic library access by Calgary standards.

Let's look closer. Note it's entrance is tucked below grade somehow with fences. Also note that of those 120m, over half that distance is crossing arterial roadways and ramps. And of course - no sidewalk for the rest, but we did have the sense to randomly add extra lanes, lay-bys and all sorts of unmarked asphalt because ....
View attachment 508087
I mean try to follow this curb line. And this isn't a redevelopment - someone actually planned this and built it like this!

What are we even doing here? What's the point of any of this - an unmarked 2.5 - 3 lane southbound arterial, marked parking, but also randomly changing parking lane widths etc. I need to know how this is possible to have occurred - did anyone along the way realize how bizarre this all is?

View attachment 508090

So if we are wondering where these 600+ units of high density might enjoy a nice walk to - the answer is here.

The development itself is fine I guess? But yikes - adding people to this failure of city building isn't as much of a win.
I recently went on a day trip out of town. I picked and dropped off a colleague from Sage Hill and let me tell you, as a driver it is bad, and it didn't look very friendly for a pedestrian either.

Google maps was driving me crazy; "turn right, enter the traffic circle, take the second exit, enter the traffic circle, take the second exit, enter the circle take the second exit"!

If you think the Flanders Ave interchange was innovative you will love this. Three traffic circles, all with one unfinished side that all point to the same space. The person who designed this obviously never heard that you only use a traffic circle when traffic is equal from all directions! I think the plan is to fill this in with suburban condos and when that time comes I cannot imagine the mess of people and cars trying to navigate through this neighborhood. Look at this mess:
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Good luck to people who end up living here.
 
Plenty to dislike about the area, but also keep in mind this will be 400m from Shaganappi BRT stops on either side (and potentially right next to one if they add a stop on Symons Valley Blvd). It's not all bad.
 
The history of the Sage Hill central activity centre is pretty interesting, and kind of explains how we ended up the way we did. It was first planned as part of the 2001 Symons Valley Area Structure Plan, which was put in place when Shaganappi Trail was still considered an expressway. Planning back then was ahead the policies of the MDP/CTP, but was starting to move in that direction, just not fully. High density was the plan, along with a central transit hub (which is still the plan on the parcel north of the Walmart), but it still took into account the planned expressways. So, interchanges were planned for Shaganappi / Symons Valley Parkway, with free flow slip lanes into and out of the hub.

This policy plan was taken a step further around 2006ish by Genesis who was the land owner, when they submitted a land use and outline plan that conformed to the ASP. Big density, big high speed roads. The concept was to include some big box suburban retail, an enclosed mall, and multiple highrise towers. Those of you who are also old timers on these forums like me may even remember this concept floating around from back then:
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That is the Symons Valley Parkway running off on the left hand side of the screen, with the intersection with the intersection of 37th Street NW in the foreground, the view is looking NW. I found this image from a recent Council presentation where Spray Group was redesignating that highlighted corner up in the NE to allow some more suburban apartments:

Anyway, Genesis got the approval on their outline plan and land use, and proceeded with the first few phases, that being the suburban shopping centre. This meant that they needed to build out the road network as planned, so the roads went in, they landed Walmart as a lead tenant, and the shopping complex you see there today was mostly built out. However, then the global financial crisis hit, and development demand kind of dried up, and people realized that concrete high rise living at this scale was probably not financially feasible anymore, so the site sat with the remainder never realized. In the meantime, plannign policy changed, Shaganappi was reclassified as an Arterial as opposed to a Skeletal/Expressway, and the interchange plans were dropped.

In 2017-2018ish, Genesis came back and updated the zoning on the remaining parcels, to allow for what is now being built out, much more typical suburban style development with a stronger focus on residential. There is still quite a bit of density being built in the hub, just with wood frame condos as opposed to the concrete highrises. Logel Homes has a few projects, as does Anderson Builders Group. The transit hub parcel was purchased by The City, and they are moving forward with the project, which will include the BRT hub, a permanent library (the current Sage Hilll one is a lease on a temporary basis) as well as a mix of affordable housing I think.

While the ASP was updated when Genesis rezoned, and some of the road classifications changed from Arterial to Collector, it didn't actually change the built form of the roads, so the remnants of the old plan still exist. Perhaps one day, as thousands of people live around what will hopefully be a major BRT hub, the City will come back and narrow some of the roads and create a more walkable environment than what is there now.
 
I don't care all that much over its location. The proposal is just brutal. A third of the units face into a courtyard that I don't see having sunlight at the bottom. The only thing missing from the exterior view is a moat around this stronghold mass. This tight perimeter block design is twice as tall as it should be. It would be better as 4 and 6 storeys. I'm not concerned over the loss in density. It will settle somewhere else eventually. This has me concerned Toronto developers are going start proposing more of this quantity over quality.
 

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