MichaelS
Senior Member
Would you prefer random rectangles
. But, I get what you are saying, and wonder why not a uniform colour, to make it easier to put a BUMP mural on in the future!- Thread starter Surrealplaces
- Start date
. But, I get what you are saying, and wonder why not a uniform colour, to make it easier to put a BUMP mural on in the future!
CBBarnett
Senior Member
Random (painted) rectangles absolutely!Would you prefer random rectangles
I only oppose the protruding rectangle thing because not only do they usually look silly, they also giving a building a bunch of future maintenance liabilities thanks to adding lots of unnecessary edges, seams and different materials into the exterior of the building for no reason. In this case, give me a few buckets of paint, a scissor lift and some masking tape and I'll figure something out, maybe a sloppy, DIY version of this one:
That's what's triggering my blank-wall OCD here, shades of grey stripes are in a paradoxical, uncanny valley of design choices:
- If you really didn't care about the wall, you'd just paint it all one colour or leave unpainted.
- But if you really did care about the wall, you'd paint something more interesting than grey stripes.
crisp
Active Member
This building should be 8 storeys to match the height of Vintage building across the street. Would make for a much nicer 'corridor' look while driving down 11th.
gsunnyg
Senior Member
I don't know if a project like this will really do much for vibrancy, given the context. Sure you're adding more people to the area but it would've been the same result had they built another 6 stories on Park Point 1. When we talk about revitalizing or enhancing our Core or inner city, just building midrises on commercial streets is not enough, pedestrian attractions like ground-level retail should be included as well. There are so many streets in our city and around the globe where there is abundant density but zero street-level vibrancy due to a lack of pedestrian magnets like retail bays, plazas, parks, etc.
On a street like 11th ave, adding retail would have been ideal for more vibrancy. There are pockets of retail along 11th ave, but that's the problem, there isn't much of a cohesive string of ground-level retail space for pedestrians. At best, we're getting some more people living in the core and a parking lot is disappearing. Not a bad result but given the location, not an optimal one either. Calgary city center definitely needs more main streets and I don't see why 11th ave, once known as Electric ave, can't accommodate more retail. Just my two cents. If this was built on a non-commercial street like 15th ave, it would have been more fitting. Again nothing against it being a mid-rise, a tower would've been a bonus, but I'm just more so bummed out about the ground-level design.
On a street like 11th ave, adding retail would have been ideal for more vibrancy. There are pockets of retail along 11th ave, but that's the problem, there isn't much of a cohesive string of ground-level retail space for pedestrians. At best, we're getting some more people living in the core and a parking lot is disappearing. Not a bad result but given the location, not an optimal one either. Calgary city center definitely needs more main streets and I don't see why 11th ave, once known as Electric ave, can't accommodate more retail. Just my two cents. If this was built on a non-commercial street like 15th ave, it would have been more fitting. Again nothing against it being a mid-rise, a tower would've been a bonus, but I'm just more so bummed out about the ground-level design.
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Disraeli
Active Member
Retail on 11th should be a no brainer. I don't buy the argument that the inclusion of retail should simply match what the current retail market demands. It's the same mindset that led to the horrible design of the District complex 15 years ago. It's also been shown time and time again that well designed CRUs in good locations don't sit vacant. Not having retail would be a missed opportunity to help develop 11th into a mixed use commercial area.
crisp
Active Member
Going to go against everyone's opinion and honestly think that residential at street level is better than retail on this corner. There is plenty of retail between Centre Street and 8th Street on 11th Ave. This corner is also kind of awkwardly 'tucked away' a block from the retail strip on 1st Street, emphasized by the fact that 2nd street does not have access to the business district past the train tracks.
Walk-up townhomes with a thought-out design to interact with the street does not kill vibrancy. Yaletown in Vancouver is littered with this and there is nothing 'dead' about that neighborhood.
Walk-up townhomes with a thought-out design to interact with the street does not kill vibrancy. Yaletown in Vancouver is littered with this and there is nothing 'dead' about that neighborhood.
MissingMiddle
Active Member
For a mid-rise with no retail, I like it.
Should it be taller?
I love 30 storey towers on podiums. However, Paris has a higher population density than every North American city other than NYC, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anything taller than 10 stories there. Tall =/= vibrant.
Should it have retail?
Ideally? Yes. But this isn't an ideal corner, and it's not an ideal market. 11th avenue is a 4-lane, one-way, urban highway. The sidewalks are just wide enough for two people to pass each other in single file. 2nd St isn't much better. It's an intersection of car sewers with street parking, no protected bike lanes, no street canopy, no patios, no benches, and you're lucky if you can find a garbage can.
So no, I don't blame them for putting live/work units on ground level, with planters to make some kind of separation from the vehicle way. We've shown that we care more about cars than we do about people, and cars don't spend money, people do. No retail is a symptom, the market can only support so much retail on 11th when the priority is moving vehicles through it as quickly as possible.
Should it be taller?
I love 30 storey towers on podiums. However, Paris has a higher population density than every North American city other than NYC, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anything taller than 10 stories there. Tall =/= vibrant.
Should it have retail?
Ideally? Yes. But this isn't an ideal corner, and it's not an ideal market. 11th avenue is a 4-lane, one-way, urban highway. The sidewalks are just wide enough for two people to pass each other in single file. 2nd St isn't much better. It's an intersection of car sewers with street parking, no protected bike lanes, no street canopy, no patios, no benches, and you're lucky if you can find a garbage can.
So no, I don't blame them for putting live/work units on ground level, with planters to make some kind of separation from the vehicle way. We've shown that we care more about cars than we do about people, and cars don't spend money, people do. No retail is a symptom, the market can only support so much retail on 11th when the priority is moving vehicles through it as quickly as possible.
gsunnyg
Senior Member
See with your “retail” point what we’re really then assuming is that the city and developers have accepted that 11th ave will forever be dominated by cars and the retail market will forever be oversaturated. Then we’re still stuck on our old ways of building a city not for the future but rather in the short sighted context of today. There’s no reason why 11th Ave can’t be transformed into a pedestrian friendly street one day. It has historic buildings to build around. Also, we’re ignoring the fact that the Beltline will likely double in population before the end of this buildings life cycle, providing a substantial population size to support more retail along our limited commercial streets.
MissingMiddle
Active Member
I totally agree with you, I'd love to see 11th changed as much as anyone. Just saying that if we're condemning anything, I'd much sooner point the finger at the planning than the architecture that responds to it. The difference being that the developer is focused on profits, and the policy on pubic wellbeing, which makes it harder for me to blame the developer/designer.
Alex_YYC
Senior Member
I concur. I’m okay there’s no retail because the Beltline already has several retail corridors. Where I’d like to see retail addition is corridors where there is a bit of retail but could use more (19th street NW, 20th Ave., Northwest, 17th Ave SW near Westbrook, etc..)
Mountain Man
Senior Member
Would have loved retail there, but townhomes at grade is still better than most of that area currently.
CCF
Active Member
Townhomes at grade that have the flexibility to be used for commercial or residential is a pretty logical approach for this street at this time.
Beltline_B
Senior Member
I’m good with this having retail or not having retail, I’m ambivalent. If retail was there it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world obviously, but it’s totally fine without it.
Beltline_B
Senior Member
ByeByeBaby
Active Member
This stretch of 11th Ave doesn't need more vacant or underused CRUs. 11th ave in one block either side is majority either vacant or underutilized ground-level retail spaces. (11th Avenue Place, half a block away, still has four of five retail bays empty as the day it was built -- going on seven years now). There are better, stronger retail corridors in the area, including 1st St and 4th St -- both of them a block away, and both of them with 2x or 3x the pedestrian activity.
I agree that townhomes or work/live units are the best solution for second-tier streets like this one -- potential to in the far future become retail corridors with substantial redevelopment, but not a current or emerging retail corridor. Activity today with the potential to convert to retail if the demand ever increases. I'd love to see a true work/live townhouse floorplan design where there is the potential to fairly easily convert the ground level into a separate space and the upper floor becomes a 1 BR or studio, but perhaps they won't fly on the market.
I agree that townhomes or work/live units are the best solution for second-tier streets like this one -- potential to in the far future become retail corridors with substantial redevelopment, but not a current or emerging retail corridor. Activity today with the potential to convert to retail if the demand ever increases. I'd love to see a true work/live townhouse floorplan design where there is the potential to fairly easily convert the ground level into a separate space and the upper floor becomes a 1 BR or studio, but perhaps they won't fly on the market.