[1875]

If the Flames fuck this up and the arena loses all the public pedestrian components (retail, public skating rink, etc) then I’m officially done with the franchise. They can leave town for all I care.

wouldnt bet against it

 

[CBBarnett]

If the Flames fuck this up and the arena loses all the public pedestrian components (retail, public skating rink, etc) then I’m officially done with the franchise. They can leave town for all I care.

No matter how it turns out, there's probably a few excellent "I called it" quotes from people a few years ago. I want it to go well and come together but there hasn't been a lot of confidence-generating steps along the way - indeed having CMLC onboarded was probably one of the few for me and they may be out now.

Do you all remember the wild half-baked West Village proposal at that Ken King press conference after a decade of rumours for a new arena design? It barely passed the shiny and new rendering test before the slightest digging into the project assumptions proved they did zero homework after a decade and had no execution plan whatsoever. That to me was the start of the the current arena cycle and was a huge miss out of the gate. There's been ups and downs, but little to inspire confidence this will work out. At best it's too soon to tell.

The larger problem is that in 30 years when we "need" a new one again, everyone forgets and the grift can start all over. It doesn't have to be this way, but it would require the Flames to be good faith actors (they haven't demonstrated that) or a political climate that doesn't fold to grifts for public money (we haven't demonstrated that).

 

[outoftheice]

If the CMLC is out then my support for this project is officially gone. I have zero faith the Flames want anything more than the Saddledome 2.0 and without the CMLC there to offer checks and balances, that's exactly what we'll get. Calgarians deserve public good for public money and that is an arena that activates the streetscape and creates year-round vibrancy... not just a box that's home to an amazing hockey experience

 

[DougB]

I wonder what issue CSEC has with CMLC...

CMLC has to be paid for its project management, which in effect lessened the City's net contribution to the project as the City would be on the hook to cover CMLC headcount regardless. Punting CMLC is stealth increase to the City's share of the project.

 

[MissingMiddle]

No matter how it turns out, there's probably a few excellent "I called it" quotes from people a few years ago. I want it to go well and come together but there hasn't been a lot of confidence-generating steps along the way - indeed having CMLC onboarded was probably one of the few for me and they may be out now.

Do you all remember the wild half-baked West Village proposal at that Ken King press conference after a decade of rumours for a new arena design? It barely passed the shiny and new rendering test before the slightest digging into the project assumptions proved they did zero homework after a decade and had no execution plan whatsoever. That to me was the start of the the current arena cycle and was a huge miss out of the gate. There's been ups and downs, but little to inspire confidence this will work out. At best it's too soon to tell.

The larger problem is that in 30 years when we "need" a new one again, everyone forgets and the grift can start all over. It doesn't have to be this way, but it would require the Flames to be good faith actors (they haven't demonstrated that) or a political climate that doesn't fold to grifts for public money (we haven't demonstrated that).

I wish we would get over this idea of the "new" arena every 30 years, in addition to leaving these derelict wastelands behind, it's awful for embodied carbon. MSG is ~55 years old and one of the best arenas there is. Build something that meets the requirements now, but has opportunity for future enhancement/renovation.

CMLC has a pretty strong track record of delivering projects that are good for the city, meet the requirements, and keeping it on budget. I'll be disappointed if/when they're kicked.

 

[MichaelS]

Agreed. I find it fascinating/infuriating that some of our biggest, most expensive civic complexes appear to have a lifespan of about half the length of a typical, stick-built, single family home.

 

[BKha]

Agreed. I find it fascinating/infuriating that some of our biggest, most expensive civic complexes appear to have a lifespan of about half the length of a typical, stick-built, single family home.

It's pretty weird when you think about it. Buildings like Maple Leaf Gardens, etc... lasted for decades, but these days they don't last more than 30 or 40 years.These days it's all about keeping up the Joneses, and that private box revenue. My hope is now that every NHL city will have newer generation arena that covers concerts and private boxes sufficiently that we don't see a new crop of arenas in 20 years. There's been talk of a new arena in Ottawa, even though the one they have isn't even 30 years old.

 

[dazzlingdave88]

Katz also cut Northlands out and enhanced his bargaining position, upped his demands and had more direct control over city council without third party oversight/input. This is the EXACT. SAME. PLAYBOOK. How the fuck do we not learn the lessons from our neighbour less than a decade ago?

 

[Roaring Flames]

I don't know where your getting the idea that modern arenas are made to last for only 30 years. The Saddledome is in a rather unique position of being a unique design with several design flaws that has resulted in it not lasting as long as other arenas that were built in the 90s. Let's face it other than Ottawa and maybe Winnipeg there's likely not going to be another arena built by a Canadian NHL franchise in a long time. We're far more likely to see large renovations done. BTW the reason they want a new arena in Ottawa is because the current one is on the outskirts of the city. Not because there is actually anything wrong with the arena

 

[Surrealplaces]

I don't know where your getting the idea that modern arenas are made to last for only 30 years. The Saddledome is in a rather unique position of being a unique design with several design flaws that has resulted in it not lasting as long as other arenas that were built in the 90s. Let's face it other than Ottawa and maybe Winnipeg there's likely not going to be another arena built by a Canadian NHL franchise in a long time. We're far more likely to see large renovations done. BTW the reason they want a new arena in Ottawa is because the current one is on the outskirts of the city. Not because there is actually anything wrong with the arena

I think most arenas could have lasted far longer, and were fine from a building structural point, but every NHL arena that was built in the 60's or 70's and even the 80's (with the exception of the Saddledome) has been replaced with many ending up demolished. Whatever the reason for replacing them, it's a case of hundreds of millions spent on something that seems to have a 30-40 year life span. Will we see another wave of new arenas starting in another 20 years? Who knows.

 

[Silence&Motion]

I think most arenas could have lasted far longer, and were fine from a building structural point, but every NHL arena that was built in the 60's or 70's and even the 80's (with the exception of the Saddledome) has been replaced with many ending up demolished. Whatever the reason for replacing them, it's a case of hundreds of millions spent on something that seems to have a 30-40 year life span. Will we see another wave of new arenas starting in another 20 years? Who knows.

I guess that depends on the business model of the teams. Every time there's a new business model, the existing arenas either need to be renovated or replaced. First it was putting in more private boxes, restaurants, and retail. Now it's about building these massive real estate empires around the arenas. It's just a major piss-off that the public keeps having to pay for the teams to be able to expand their profit margins.

 

[DougB]

I don't know where your getting the idea that modern arenas are made to last for only 30 years. The Saddledome is in a rather unique position of being a unique design with several design flaws that has resulted in it not lasting as long as other arenas that were built in the 90s. Let's face it other than Ottawa and maybe Winnipeg there's likely not going to be another arena built by a Canadian NHL franchise in a long time. We're far more likely to see large renovations done. BTW the reason they want a new arena in Ottawa is because the current one is on the outskirts of the city. Not because there is actually anything wrong with the arena

The Saddledome opened in the fall of 1983. It is one of very few such facilities built in the 1980's.

 

[DougB]

It's pretty weird when you think about it. Buildings like Maple Leaf Gardens, etc... lasted for decades, but these days they don't last more than 30 or 40 years.These days it's all about keeping up the Joneses, and that private box revenue. My hope is now that every NHL city will have newer generation arena that covers concerts and private boxes sufficiently that we don't see a new crop of arenas in 20 years. There's been talk of a new arena in Ottawa, even though the one they have isn't even 30 years old.

I question whether private boxes will continue to be big revenue generators going forward. Even before COVID, corporate entertainment (i.e. wining and dining clients) was in decline

 

[Col du Edworthy]

IMO in game betting will be the next big thing for arenas. I think what Pittsburgh did will become the norm (where allowed )pretty quick

BetRivers Lounge Opens at PPG Paints Arena

For Pittsburgh hockey fans and sports enthusiasts alike, there’s a new branded, hi-tech addition to PPG Paints Arena. The all-new BetRivers Lounge at

www.businesswire.com

 

[Dārayavauš]

If the Flames fuck this up and the arena loses all the public pedestrian components (retail, public skating rink, etc) then I’m officially done with the franchise. They can leave town for all I care.

This would be a non starter idea from the Flames though. This is not 1982 anymore and no one wants this. If it is part of what they are getting, then this just goes back to the city. It will never be allowed to happen. Gutting the public realm for parking in a downtown revitalized area is utterly moronic.