[O-tac]

The heritage society should set up a kiosk or something to inform anyone passing by that the entire north side streetwall in that section is going to be bulldozed. This needs to be brought to the attention of anyone walking Stephen Ave. We need to create public outcry over this development beyond the pages of this forum.

 

[darwink]

Then there's the south block.

That was the biggest bait and switch. Making it sound like it will be donation, then turn around and ask for $45/psf + operating from potential cultural constitution tenants.

 

[Roaring Flames]

Oh, but making the rejection non-appealable is import too!

Hopefully Administration recommends the project be sent back because of the loss of municipal heritage designated buildings on 7th Ave

 

[FCC1982]

You know Calgary is maturing when: Most of the people on a skyscraper forum are against an 800' tower because it could have a negative effect on the urban environment. I remember the early days of SSP when the battle cry was MOAR HEIGHT!

Guess I’m in the minority on here then.
My biggest disappointment is it won’t be a new tallest. I was really excited when I saw 287m !

 

[Surrealplaces]

You know Calgary is maturing when: Most of the people on a skyscraper forum are against an 800' tower because it could have a negative effect on the urban environment. I remember the early days of SSP when the battle cry was MOAR HEIGHT!

It’s funny how things change. 20 years ago everyone was in awe of supertalls and they were marvelled at.
They’ve lost their lustre in recent years…even China isn’t allowing any more to be built. They’re often seeing nowadays as wasteful vanity projects.
I still admire skyscrapers, and they give a certain Gotham City vibe but I understand the sentiment. They are more wasteful than low rise buildings, not to mention shadowing issues and issues we have seen at the street level. Modern Super-talls especially, have large monolithic podiums.

I’ve been to some of the tallest skyscrapers. The Willis Tower, the former World Trade towers, Burj Khalifa, Petronas Towers, IFC in Hong Kong…. And other tall ones in various cities. One thing they all have in common is they are nice to look at but offer little else.

The Petronas Towers, Burj Khalifa IFC have malls at the base, And the malls are quite busy but there’s not much street life or vibrancy around the area other than the mall itself. They might as well be out in a suburb somewhere. The cool street life in those cities is found in other areas.

 

[haltcatchfire]

Guess I’m in the minority on here then.
My biggest disappointment is it won’t be a new tallest. I was really excited when I saw 287m !

Never know. They may still want it to be 287 and new tallest. You’d think they’d review that before a DP submission but then again I rarely see all Ts crossed and Is dotted anymore.

 

[potatopizzafan]

I know this is "skyrise cities" but i could not give a single fuck if another skyscraper is ever built in this city. Some of my favorite cities ive been to have almost 0 skyscrapers, Stockholm, Amsterdam, etc. Give me 6 story midrises all day

 

[UrbanRED]

I'm pro-tower, but only if the towers improve the urban environment with them. Density has it's pros, but it can also be really bad if not done properly.

In general, because our city is so suburban, I think most of us here are pro-density, so it should be extremely telling about how bad this is that it seems like the majority of this forum is against this project. Despite the boost in density, this project has so many misgivings I reckon it should go back to the drawing board.

 

[Surrealplaces]

I'm pro-tower, but only if the towers improve the urban environment with them. Density has it's pros, but it can also be really bad if not done properly.

In general, because our city is so suburban, I think most of us here are pro-density, so it should be extremely telling about how bad this is that it seems like the majority of this forum is against this project. Despite the boost in density, this project has so many misgivings I reckon it should go back to the drawing board.

That's how I would describe myself also. I like towers, but only if it's a good fit. Condo towers around the Beltline have generally been a good addition, with some like the Royal, being great additions. I think the issue for me is the office only towers we have in Calgary have been poorly thought out. Downtown's in the position it's in because we've built tower after tower replacing smaller buildings with retail with office towers having, restrictive lifeless podiums. Some of the businesses may have had questionable reputations, but at least they added street life. Here's some replacements that I can think of.

707 5th street	no outside retail at base	replaced a small building with 3 retail units including restaurant
The Bow	no outside retail at base	replaced hotel with retail units at base.
Telus Sky	no outside retail at base	replaced Art central which had 10 units facing centre street and 7th ave
Brookfield place	no outside retail at base	replaced 15 retail units facing 6th ave, 7th ave and 1st street.
EAP	1 outside retail unit at base?	replaced Penny Lane mall which included Cowboys and Ceili's
City Centre	1 retail unit semi accessible from outside	replaced French Maid, and Don Quijote's

I can't recall what was in place before some of the other towers were built (Jamieson Place, Livingston Place, etc..)

It all adds up to a good sized loss of small businesses. Many of those businesses were open on weekends and after hours, and in the end these towers did nothing for the urban environment except damage it. I can live with Telus Sky because it's a super cool building and the light art does have a positive effect on the urban environment It also has a residential port, so overall not a terrible trade. The others on the other hand

 

[DougB]

CNRL is mostly in Bankers Hall West, I can't see them wanting to move out of there.

Brookfield would cut whatever deal necessary to keep CNRL and Suncor in their existing buildings. Banker's Hall and the Suncor Towers are already Class AAA. What would be the motivation to move?

If the office poposal is serious, a large cap O&G tenant would not be the target. Those companies are already under the gun for not returning enough to shareholders, so no way would a board ever approve any spending that doesn't involve return of capital. An unexpected side effect (or maybe it should have been expected) of ESG activism is to push O&G companies' cost of capital through the roof to the point where they can't spend money on anything other than debt reduction, dividends and share buybacks.

The two most likely tenants are Enbridge and Pembina. Enbridge has been looking to move for a while, but I'm sure Brookfield can offer incentives to keep it. Pembina has history with the Mannix family, so it would be more likely.

Other than the buildings housing Palomino and the Central United Church, none of the 7th Avenue street wall is worth saving. Fortunately, these buldings are on the corners. The sidewalk is too narrow and can only be widened by sinking the LRT or rebuilding with greater setback. Most of the Stephen Ave side is worth saving. The newer building housing the Thai restaurant is not. The facade of the Norman Block might be worth preserving, but it is mostly fake heritage from 1997. Before Winner's, part of it was the Sillk-O-Lina Store. The remainder was a concrete building from about the 1950's. None of the interior is original. Heritage preservation may be a great way to signal #progressive bonafides, preserving everything would cripple redevelopment of the block by restricting floorplates and street access for lobbies. The Winner's and Thai restaurtant buildings could be demolished to provide lobby access. Feedback should focus on increasing the side walk widths on 7th, setting back the towers and shrinking the podium height.

I still can't see this project happening anytime soon. The dt office and retail leasing markets are likely to remain in the toilet for years, if not decades.

 

[DougB]

That's how I would describe myself also. I like towers, but only if it's a good fit. Condo towers around the Beltline have generally been a good addition, with some like the Royal, being great additions. I think the issue for me is the office only towers we have in Calgary have been poorly thought out. Downtown's in the position it's in because we've built tower after tower replacing smaller buildings with retail with office towers having, restrictive lifeless podiums. Some of the businesses may have had questionable reputations, but at least they added street life. Here's some replacements that I can think of.

707 5th street	no outside retail at base	replaced a small building with 3 retail units including restaurant
The Bow	no outside retail at base	replaced hotel with retail units at base.
Telus Sky	no outside retail at base	replaced Art central which had 10 units facing centre street and 7th ave
Brookfield place	no outside retail at base	replaced 15 retail units facing 6th ave, 7th ave and 1st street.
EAP	1 outside retail unit at base?	replaced Penny Lane mall which included Cowboys and Ceili's
City Centre	1 retail unit semi accessible from outside	replaced French Maid, and Don Quijote's

I can't recall what was in place before some of the other towers were built (Jamieson Place, Livingston Place, etc..)

It all adds up to a good sized loss of small businesses. Many of those businesses were open on weekends and after hours, and in the end these towers did nothing for the urban environment except damage it. I can live with Telus Sky because it's a super cool building and the light art does have a positive effect on the urban environment It also has a residential port, so overall not a terrible trade. The others on the other hand

Jamieson Place was Hy's restaurant. Livingston has been parking lots since at least the 1970's.

 

[DougB]

Neo is taking the 2 top floors of the Bay building and have a floor or two in the Edison, I doubt it's them. I do wonder if the city could block the office part, I definitely think it's irresponsible to build.

Developers are businesses. They are connected to the market and always have better insight into customer requirements than politicians or bureaucrats.

 

[MichaelS]

That's how I would describe myself also. I like towers, but only if it's a good fit. Condo towers around the Beltline have generally been a good addition, with some like the Royal, being great additions. I think the issue for me is the office only towers we have in Calgary have been poorly thought out. Downtown's in the position it's in because we've built tower after tower replacing smaller buildings with retail with office towers having, restrictive lifeless podiums. Some of the businesses may have had questionable reputations, but at least they added street life. Here's some replacements that I can think of.

707 5th street	no outside retail at base	replaced a small building with 3 retail units including restaurant
The Bow	no outside retail at base	replaced hotel with retail units at base.
Telus Sky	no outside retail at base	replaced Art central which had 10 units facing centre street and 7th ave
Brookfield place	no outside retail at base	replaced 15 retail units facing 6th ave, 7th ave and 1st street.
EAP	1 outside retail unit at base?	replaced Penny Lane mall which included Cowboys and Ceili's
City Centre	1 retail unit semi accessible from outside	replaced French Maid, and Don Quijote's

I can't recall what was in place before some of the other towers were built (Jamieson Place, Livingston Place, etc..)

It all adds up to a good sized loss of small businesses. Many of those businesses were open on weekends and after hours, and in the end these towers did nothing for the urban environment except damage it. I can live with Telus Sky because it's a super cool building and the light art does have a positive effect on the urban environment It also has a residential port, so overall not a terrible trade. The others on the other hand

Great list/summary, but one quick correction I can think of. The Bow has (had?) A Starbucks on the ground level with an exterior door, West side of the tower.

 

[FCC1982]

More than one source has said it’s Suncor.

 

[Disraeli]

Other than the buildings housing Palomino and the Central United Church, none of the 7th Avenue street wall is worth saving. Fortunately, these buldings are on the corners. The sidewalk is too narrow and can only be widened by sinking the LRT or rebuilding with greater setback.

The sidewalk narrows because of a bus lay-by. It could be widened without impacting the lrt.

Most of the Stephen Ave side is worth saving. The newer building housing the Thai restaurant is not. The facade of the Norman Block might be worth preserving, but it is mostly fake heritage from 1997. Before Winner's, part of it was the Sillk-O-Lina Store. The remainder was a concrete building from about the 1950's. None of the interior is original.

The facade of the Norman Block is original apart from the frieze. The interior of a heritage building having been renovated at various points shouldn't justify demolishing it.

Heritage preservation may be a great way to signal #progressive bonafides, preserving everything would cripple redevelopment of the block by restricting floorplates and street access for lobbies. The Winner's and Thai restaurtant buildings could be demolished to provide lobby access.

It is also a great way to preserve the character of Stephan Ave. No one cares about lobby access. Build it somewhere else if that's a concern for the developer.