[kEiThZ]

Catering to bad Republican policy seems to be the only interest of some Canadians. Which is exactly what you anti war resisters are doing.

No, I am arguing that Canada's laws and policies should not be modified to suit whichever political agenda is popular at the time. If we do this now, what about another time, when there is a draft and the government of the day decides it can go the other way and deny draftees refugee status. I am saying that consistent and effective policies should be protected and maintained.

Furthermore, I have already said, that governments are elected to serve Canadians, not ignorant Americans who readily fall prey to the courtings of US military recruiters. I want my government to make policy that promotes the Canadian interest. I don't want trade and foreign policy irritants to develop with the US, just because of a handful of US military deserters.

We've shown how today's war resisters are similar to Vietnam deserters due to stop loss, misuse of the National Guard, denials of Conscientious Objector status, 3, 4 and 5 forced tours of duty, forcing retired soldiers back into service and the dishonest recruitment tactic on the gullible and young.

No, all you have shown is that some incredibly ignorant individuals can easily fall prey to the courtings of a recruiter, resist the advice of friends and family, then decide to break the law (desertion), and convince gullible individuals like you that there should be no consequences for all that. What's more they feel, that all of a sudden, that their few years in prison should outweigh the human rights of those who are actually fleeing a life-threatening situation. I find it disgusting that your political agenda would treat truly deserving refugees so expediently.

I have already said, they are welcome to pursue immigration through the normal channels. But I don't believe that any exception should be made for people that make poor decisions.

It's fun to see Conservatives scream about the rule of law only when it's convenient for political agendas.

You can assume what ever you want about our political leanings. As a former card carrying Liberal (i left cause of the scandals) and a proud green supporters, I have only voted Conservative once in an provincial election. But I am a Canadian nationalist. I want policies that work for Canada, and I will not support policies that turn Canada into some 21st century manifest destiny paradise for US military deserters.

And that argument can go both ways. It's fun to see left wingers stick up for some 200 "war resisters" while ignoring the millions who languish in refugee camps throughout the world. I would even go so far as to suggest that these masses might not matter to you because they aren't clean cut white boys who can be shown on TV in a nice tear jerking form, and suit your anti-American agenda.

When you start advocating policies that are fair for all people in distress, I'll join you. Till then, I am supportive of Canada's very generous refugee policies that help people in distress, with circumstances far more dire than a handful of deserters who are just seeking a convenient first world refuge and escape from their poor life choices.

 

[Mot]

The Iraq war is based on lies just like Vietnam. These soldiers aren't going to be less dead than a Vietnam soldier sacrificing their lives for a bad political war.

You might be green but on this issue you are down right Republican.

I want Canada's refugee system expanded for all political prisoners which is exactly what these soldier become when they are deported. Long was swiftly taken into custody by the cowardly Tory government. Some have labelled it rendition, if this is the direction Canada is going in I am going to fight it all the way. The war resisters will be the first ones to say they were stupid about signing up, they were naive to think their government would never misuse them and that the US would never harm innocent civilians. They learned the truth pretty quickly in Iraq.

This Tory government refuses to give one of it's citizens a fair trial while he lingers in guantanamo bay, this government allowed another of it's citizens to be brutally tortured for the horrible crime of being muslim.

This government is very UN-Canadian in so many ways, the war resister treatment is a glaring example. Some Canadians want Canada to run away from it's history of being a beacon of light against dark militarism. I am proud of that history and embrace it.

 

[kEiThZ]

The Iraq war is based on lies just like Vietnam. These soldiers aren't going to be less dead than a Vietnam soldier sacrificing their lives for a bad political war.

Partially agree. But there is no legally enforceable draft on. You can cite all the socio-economic evidence you want about recruits, and yammer on about stop-loss, but at the end of the day nobody forced these individuals to join the US military, they did it of their own volition. They CHOSE to sign on the dotted line.

You might be green but on this issue you are down right Republican.

Actually, the Greens agree with you. But on this point, I have stated that I will support their refuge if somebody can show me that this is good for Canada. You have failed to show that.

I want Canada's refugee system expanded for all political prisoners which is exactly what these soldier become when they are deported.

Canada's refugee policy only accepts political prisoners and prisoner's of conscience where there is a threat of life for exercising/expressing their opinions. There is no such issue here where they are facing prison sentences not a noose. Therefore, under our laws they are not political refugees. Actually, without material threats to their person they are not refugees period.

And that is as it should be. Otherwise every US republican could move here when a Democratic administration is in place or every Democrat when a republican administration is in place. We don't base our migration policies on the vagaries of the US electorate.

Long was swiftly taken into custody by the cowardly Tory government.

He was arrested for breaking the laws of this country. Last I checked, even being a refugee does not exempt you from the laws of Canada. And I guarantee you a Liberal government would have done the same thing. I expect any elected government to enforce the laws that are on the books.

Parliament could have passed a specific and enforceable bill that would have made exemptions for US deserters. They didnt. They passed a political statement. So apparently, even the left parties don't feel so committed to your cause.

Some have labelled it rendition, if this is the direction Canada is going in I am going to fight it all the way.

It is not extraordinary rendition. We are returning a US citizen to the United States. Moreover, we are deporting one that broke the laws of this country. That's no different than deporting an immigrant who committed a crime in Canada to the land of his nationality. This is not a Maher Arar situation.

The war resisters will be the first ones to say they were stupid about signing up,

And they should pay for their ignorance. As a Canadian, I have no problem paying for the mistakes of my fellow citizens but I feel no compulsion to support idiotic foreigners.

they were naive to think their government would never misuse them and that the US would never harm innocent civilians. They learned the truth pretty quickly in Iraq.

Too bad. So sad. How is that the problem of the Canadian citizen and taxpayer?

This Tory government refuses to give one of it's citizens a fair trial while he lingers in guantanamo bay, this government allowed another of it's citizens to be brutally tortured for the horrible crime of being muslim.

On this I will agree with you. I strongly disagree with the treatment of Omar Khadr. Sadly, most of the Canadian public has less sympathy for the Khadr's then I do. And that's why the Liberals kept quiet when they were in power, and the Conservatives are simply following their lead now....

This government is very UN-Canadian in so many ways, the war resister treatment is a glaring example.

No this government is very Canadian. The number of refugees that Canada takes on remains at historically high levels. You just feel that way cause they aren't going out of their way to help your precious pets. In fact, if you analyze their policies they are more to the centre on a number of issues than the Chretien/Martin Liberals...bonus points for guessing who made the largest cuts to social programs in history. I have already said that your US political template does not apply to Canada. We have had Conservative PMs who opened up immigration (Diefenbaker) and were very strong on the environment (Mulroney) and Liberal PMs who set records for defence spending (Pearson).

Some Canadians want Canada to run away from it's history of being a beacon of light against dark militarism. I am proud of that history and embrace it.

As am I. And if a draft is ever instituted south of the border, I will be the first one to welcome draft dodgers into my home. But I refuse to make exemptions for cowards who want to escape poor life choices.

 

[kEiThZ]

Mot,

Ultimately to convince us that these men and women deserve refuge you would have to prove:

1) that they fit the definition of a refugee under accepted international law
2) that the moral obligation to accept them outweighs the political and economic consequences of damaging our relations with the United States

You have not been able to prove either point.

1)They are not fearing for their life. They are fearing for a few years in jail.
2) Accepting even a few of them as refugees would lead to an eventual flood of applicants. This would basically become an active effort to undermine US policy. You might not feel that our political and economic relationship with the US is valuable, but the loggers in BC, the auto workers in Ontario, the aerospace workers in Quebec, the wheat and barley growers in the Prairies, and the fisheries workers in the Maritimes would disagree. The job of the government of Canada is to ensure that Canadians and our interest are cared for. I doubt anyone is gonna feel that a few deserters risking jail time and a bit of economic hardship is worth jeopardizing our most important trading relationship over.

I have said before and I'll say it again. These people sought an attractive first world refuge, to escape from the poor choices they made. If they wanted to make a political statement they would have chosen prison like so many great dissidents in history....Mandela, Gandhi, and even Mohammad Ali/Cassius Clay. Canadians like to keep their nose out of other people's business. And you have not proven yet, why this instance should be different. Why should the government and the people of Canada intervene between an elected government and its citizens?

You have failed to show any legal basis under which these deserters would be admitted to Canada as refugees. You have failed to present a moral argument for US deserters to queue jump over real refugees who fear for their lives. You have repeatedly failed to prove, why Canada should create a refugee policy that is specific to US citizens migrating to Canada, regardless of circumstance, when there are already so many legal venues through which they can move here. And lastly but most importantly you have yet to demonstrate how admitting these refugees is in Canada's best interest, when the political, economic and legal consequences are fairly significant.

You want to know why there aren't thousands of Canadians supporting your cause on the streets? It's because you have failed to answer exactly the challenges I have presented here. Do that and you might just get more sympathy. When these guys get on TV and say, "I wanted the free school but I didnt know what I was getting in to..." most Canadians are just not going to feel sorry for them. Plain and simple.

If the best argument you can come up with is that we should admit these folks simply because the Iraq war is unpopular...then that's simply not good enough. There are dozens of conflicts ongoing that are not popular with participants who would love to escape to Canada. Why should US deserters be treated any different than refugees from these conflicts? In fact, shouldn't civilians who are at risk of losing their lives be given even higher priority?

Their situation is tragic. And I would never wish their troubles on anyone. However, our laws are meant to protect our interests. Our migration policies are meant to ensure we get the best migrants for our country, not just people who don't like their elected governments back home. And our refugee policies are meant to provide safe harbour for those who fear for their lives. These are all sound policies and principles that have served our nation well for generations, and you would have us discard them to serve your short sighted political cause-du-jour. Thank goodness, that our sane civil servants and politicians understand how to promulgate long term policy and don't use the likes of your anti-American rhetoric as the basis for national policy and decision making.

 

[Mot]

I've proven my point many times, some people are just blind to the truth about the war, the treatment of US soldiers and the killing of innocent civilians in Iraq. If not blind then much worse would be intentionally ignorant on the issues.

This nation historically has become home to people who refuse to take part in renagade militarism. I've proven my position Keith you just don't agree with me. That's your right. I will continue to fight for these people to whom I actually know and have a vested interest while you can campaign for inanimate concepts.

The treatment of these soldiers is polticians playing a game with people lives, I don't praise the Tories as you did above for using them as pawns.

 

[Hydrogen]

The treatment of these soldiers is polticians playing a game with people lives

Once and for all, it's not politicians, but the laws. You make it sound as if a politician can do exactly whatever he or she likes. They are bound by the laws of the country - as are the people who seek entry into this country.

 

[Admiral Beez]

MOT, what do your friends among the deserters feel about Pfc Long's return to the USA? Do they think he was crazy not to keep running? Are they surprised by his sentence? Do they think the sentence was light, harsh or fair compared to the historical treatment of deserters in the US? Are they planning to keep on hiding in Canada or do others plan to return to the USA to face justice and make their stand for their beliefs?

 

[kEiThZ]

I've proven my point many times

You've presented your arguments, but you have yet to answer the challenges I have posed above.

some people are just blind to the truth about the war, the treatment of US soldiers and the killing of innocent civilians in Iraq. If not blind then much worse would be intentionally ignorant on the issues.

And you sir, are obfuscating on this issue. We are not blind to the tragedy of the conflict in Iraq. What many of us here oppose, is the abuse of Canada's laws and generous refugee policies and your attempts to put Canada into an extremely adversarial relationship with our biggest trade partner. You want us to interfere between the US government and one of its citizens.

This nation historically has become home to people who refuse to take part in renagade militarism.

Nobody here has any problem with that. But these are deserters not draft dodgers or civilians being forcibly conscripted, etc. You still have not explained why the government of Canada should come between the elected government of a democracy and its citizen as it tries to enforce the law.

I've proven my position Keith you just don't agree with me. That's your right. I will continue to fight for these people to whom I actually know and have a vested interest while you can campaign for inanimate concepts.

Your pathetic attempt at guilt tripping and shaming is not going to work. You have presented straw man arguments, and repeatedly failed to answer the challenges above. And that's why your cause has only generated superficial sympathy amongst Canadians.

These people deserve sympathy for their troubles. They have mine on that front. But nothing beyond that. You still have not shown why Canada owes any duty of care to these individuals. They should be seeking support and redress from fellow Americans, not demand support from the citizens of a foreign country (Canada). Put it this way...would you want your neighbour to interfere in the affairs of your household?

The treatment of these soldiers is polticians playing a game with people lives, I don't praise the Tories as you did above for using them as pawns.

Once and for all, it's not politicians, but the laws. You make it sound as if a politician can do exactly whatever he or she likes. They are bound by the laws of the country - as are the people who seek entry into this country.

Exactly, as Hydrogen said. You don't seem to be able to differentiate between the politicans of our land and our laws. You have no respect for the laws of this country. The same laws that have made this country what it is today. You want our politicians to discard the traditions and laws at your whim, to suit your political agenda. Well, excuse us for not supporting you. We happen to like the way our country runs. It's worked for 141 years and we see no reason to change it, all because you have a hate on for your homeland and its government.

If we do it for you and these deserters, when does it stop. Do we do the same thing for Georgians and Russians. How about Canada go out of its way to undermine Russia? Or how about China?

Like I have said again and again and again and again...laws and policies are made for our benefit, not for foreign citizens. They are welcome to become Canadians legally. Till then, we owe them nothing.

 

[lordmandeep]

really its not like you get hanged or shot by firing squad for desertion.

When is the last time someone has been charged for Treason?

 

[Mot]

MOT, what do your friends among the deserters feel about Pfc Long's return to the USA? Do they think he was crazy not to keep running? Are they surprised by his sentence? Do they think the sentence was light, harsh or fair compared to the historical treatment of deserters in the US? Are they planning to keep on hiding in Canada or do others plan to return to the USA to face justice and make their stand for their beliefs?

No one is happy with the way Long was taken. He was willing to turn himself in but they decided to jump the gun. I am curious how Jeremy Hinzman will be treated later this month once his time is up, he is the father of two small children. Jeremy was denied conscientous objector status by the military. Which is illegal in itself and should allow him the ability to remain here.

I cannot speak for all but I believe most are willing to face the consequences, as unfair as they may be. Sadly to us this makes Canada much more like the US than we expected. The government is catering to the continuation of the Bush War.

I think we were all surpised with the 15 month sentance of Long and mostly upset at him being assaulted while in Canadian custody.

Thank you for actually asking questions and being willing to learn about the subject.

I realize the legal arguments against these soldiers. I am not being told anyting new here. I just hoped Canada would take into account the legitimacy of the war, the terrible tactics the US military is using to create an economic and stop loss draft, and the moral arguments of these men and women. The power of the US is stronger than the moral arguments I suppose.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Indeed. If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow has long been their creed.

 

[Mot]

You've presented your arguments, but you have yet to answer the challenges I have posed above..

I've covered your questions many times over and over in this thread. Beating a dead horse is getting old.

And you sir, are obfuscating on this issue. We are not blind to the tragedy of the conflict in Iraq. What many of us here oppose, is the abuse of Canada's laws and generous refugee policies and your attempts to put Canada into an extremely adversarial relationship with our biggest trade partner. You want us to interfere between the US government and one of its citizens...

Don't worry you are not alone in your fear of the US. Every refugee is actually breaking the laws of Canada by entering our borders until they are given refugee status by the goverment. Perhaps you can start a Minuteman group like the one on the Mexican border.

Nobody here has any problem with that. But these are deserters not draft dodgers or civilians being forcibly conscripted, etc. You still have not explained why the government of Canada should come between the elected government of a democracy and its citizen as it tries to enforce the law..

That is exactly why a Canadian citizen languishes in a US prison without a fair trail. I can explain the US using terrible draft'like tactics like Stop Loss until I am blue in the face and you just aren't listening. A draft by any other name (Stop Loss) is still a draft.

Your pathetic attempt at guilt tripping and shaming is not going to work. You have presented straw man arguments, and repeatedly failed to answer the challenges above. And that's why your cause has only generated superficial sympathy amongst Canadians..

What's pathetic is your obvious fear of the US. I have answered the challenges over a few months here. You just don't like my arguments.
Polls show I am in the majority, you aren't on this issue.

These people deserve sympathy for their troubles. They have mine on that front. But nothing beyond that. You still have not shown why Canada owes any duty of care to these individuals. They should be seeking support and redress from fellow Americans, not demand support from the citizens of a foreign country (Canada). Put it this way...would you want your neighbour to interfere in the affairs of your household?..

Sympathy? You have a funny way of showing it. Perhaps if you tried empathy you might get it. These men and women came here because they thought they had a valid argument like others whose goverments turned on them. They seek to not be punished for refusing to kill innocent civilians You and the Tory Government have proven to us that Canada isn't the place for them to go. You win, does it make you feel good?

If the liberals were the minority government they would be here dedicated, legally and happy to support Canada.

Exactly, as Hydrogen said. You don't seem to be able to differentiate between the politicans of our land and our laws. You have no respect for the laws of this country. The same laws that have made this country what it is today. You want our politicians to discard the traditions and laws at your whim, to suit your political agenda. Well, excuse us for not supporting you. We happen to like the way our country runs. It's worked for 141 years and we see no reason to change it, all because you have a hate on for your homeland and its government.

If we do it for you and these deserters, when does it stop. Do we do the same thing for Georgians and Russians. How about Canada go out of its way to undermine Russia? Or how about China?

Like I have said again and again and again and again...laws and policies are made for our benefit, not for foreign citizens. They are welcome to become Canadians legally. Till then, we owe them nothing.

Slavery was legal, it didn't make it right.

 

[Hydrogen]

I just hoped Canada would take into account the legitimacy of the war

It already has rejected the legitimacy of that war by not getting involved.

The government is catering to the continuation of the Bush War.

You have not explained how. What would you have Canada do?

 

[Mot]

I would have Canada accept the military men and women who are speaking out about the atrocities of the war and refusing to participate in it.
There is a reason Joshua Key used a Canadian author to help pen his book. No one in the US would touch the story.

 

[Hydrogen]

As it is a volunteer military in the United States, these individuals had a choice to join or not join the military in their own country. They opted to do so. Beyond that, they have a right to speak and express their opposition to this war in their own country. They have a right to organize politically in their own country in order to oppose this war. They have a right to dissent non-violently in their own country to oppose this war. As citizens, they have a responsibility to do so if they believe that this war is not legitimate. Trying to come to Canada will not do a thing to stop that war. In effect, they are abrogating their responsibilities by trying to do so, and, as a result, enabling its continuation.