Moonmoth
Active Member
Yes! This would be very good! The the Cons would be bound to also de-throne Harper as head of their party as well.
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- Thread starter Solaris
- Start date
Yes! This would be very good! The the Cons would be bound to also de-throne Harper as head of their party as well.
Moonmoth
Active Member
That would be an excellent outcome as well.
I'm curious to see if Elizabeth May is able to defeat Peter McKay in the Nova Scotia riding, if she can achieve that, it should be front page news. To unseat a minister is HUGE!!! I wonder if it will happen! I guess we'll see tonight.
Brandon716
Senior Member
To be clear, putting it to a vote was a last ditch effort to can gay marriage and take Canada back in time. Anything else is just pandering to Conservative spin.
The stakes and issues at hand are clear as a clear blue day. And if you want to know why Cons are bad, I'll refer you to the Star article. I think they did a cool summary for what is good for Canada and how Harper doesn't fit into the good side of Canada.
Brandon716
Senior Member
To be clear, putting it to a vote was a last ditch effort to can gay marriage and take Canada back in time. Anything else is just pandering to Conservative spin.
The stakes and issues at hand are clear as a clear blue day. And if you want to know why Cons are bad, I'll refer you to the Star article. I think they did a cool summary for what is good for Canada and how Harper doesn't fit into the good side of Canada.
Solaris
Senior Member
Toronto Star - Why I deserve your vote
Let the dogs out ~~ we'll find out on tonight's final episode of "Canada's next Prime Minister"
*********
Four leaders explain in their own words why you should support them at the ballot box today
Oct 14, 2008 04:30 AM
STEPHEN HARPER
CONSERVATIVE
Prudent plan in stormy times
I love Canada deeply and being Prime Minister is a great honour. In these times of global economic uncertainty, it's a great responsibility, too. That's why my government has weatherproofed the Canadian economy against the gathering international economic storm. The most important thing to me is that Canadian families are protected.
That's why we paid down nearly $40 billion in government debt. We lowered taxes by $3,000 a year for the average family. We brought in new reforms to Canadian banks, making them the safest and most secure in the world. We are careful with spending, making targeted investments in key manufacturing sectors, especially here in Ontario.
We did what Canadian families expect us to do – we made sensible preparations that are paying off.
Canada now has the strongest economy in the G7. Last month, more than 100,000 new jobs were created – the biggest one-month gain ever. We're going to get through this together.
Our election platform is not full of grandiose, costly promises. It's a prudent approach. We can afford it. We'll never go back into deficit.
Stéphane Dion has a different approach. His risky carbon tax proposal would make energy more expensive, increasing prices for everything from groceries to gas. It's never a good time to introduce a new tax like that, but it's especially risky these days. It's an experiment Canadians can't risk.
Dion also announced enormous spending promises that we can't afford. He would put Canada into deficit again.
There are many reasons to vote Conservative, from our sensible approach to crime to our strong support for families. But right now, the most important thing is to protect our Canadian economy – and to stop Dion's risky carbon tax.
I respectfully ask for your vote. Together we'll keep our country strong, united, independent and free.
STÉPHANE DION
LIBERAL
A richer, fairer, greener nation
At the start of this campaign, I asked Canadians a very straightforward question: Has Canada grown stronger under the Harper Conservatives?
Ask the 200,000 families who have lost good, full-time manufacturing jobs while the Harper government sat on its hands. Ask the families waiting for a child care space, or supporters of Canadian arts. Ask the growing number of people concerned about the climate change crisis, or the millions of Canadians watching their retirement savings lose value in the global financial crisis.
Stephen Harper has failed Canadians. Worse, he also has no plan to help Canadians deal with the challenges they face. To hardworking families struggling to make ends meet, Mr. Harper's response is: Look for bargains in the falling stock market. After burying their heads in the sand for months, the Conservatives are now panicking and grasping at straws.
Only the Liberal Party offers the combination of a strong record as economic managers, a strong team of experienced men and women ready to take action on Day 1, and a strong plan for Canada's future. In our first 30 days, we will invest in infrastructure projects and in the manufacturing sector to boost job creation. We have a sound approach to the financial crisis designed to protect your savings. Our plan has been endorsed by environmentalists and economists. It is supported by mayors, artists, university students, and business people.
A Liberal government will cut your taxes. We will cut greenhouse gases. We will help recruit more doctors and nurses. We will invest in public transit, infrastructure, child care and the fight against poverty.
The only job that a vote for the other parties will save is Stephen Harper's.
For a progressive government, you must vote for your local Liberal candidate.
Together, we can build a richer, fairer and greener Canada.
JACK LAYTON
NEW DEMOCRAT
We'll stand up for the people
When you vote today, ask yourself: "Which leader and which party is on my family's side?" I'm confident you will choose the New Democrats.
Prime Minister Harper doesn't care about the kitchen-table concerns of everyday families.
Mr. Harper discovered midway through this election that people are concerned about the future. He would have known that long ago if he had been speaking to everyday families.
Mr. Harper wants to strip our government's capacity to take action, by spending billions of dollars on corporate tax cuts. He calls that his plan.
Stéphane Dion doesn't have better ideas. In asking you to "stop Harper," Mr. Dion is asking you to do something he didn't do himself. Mr. Dion and his caucus sat on their hands during 43 critical votes to keep the Conservatives in power.
Worse, Mr. Dion continues to push his $40 billion carbon tax. That tax is expensive and unfair, and isn't as effective as our plan on climate change.
We've got a better plan.
We'll respond quickly and effectively to uncertainty – re-regulating banks, and introducing our plan to reinforce and reinvest in our real economy within 100 days of this election.
We'll invest in skills-training and protecting jobs; in infrastructure and transit for our cities.
We'll help families make ends meet through an enhanced Child Benefit.
We'll protect ordinary people's savings, pensions, homes and jobs.
And we'll act on other key concerns of Canadian families – like helping the five million Canadians who don't have access to a family doctor.
Our mainstream, prudent and widely adopted climate change plan will lower emissions, and clean our air and water – fairly.
Our priorities are the kitchen-table concerns of families like yours.
Vote New Democrat.
ELIZABETH MAY
GREEN
A secure future for Canadians
For too long, politics and election campaigns have been about marketing and spin doctors; war rooms and attack ads. Elections should be about the exercise of the citizens' right to choose their government in a free and democratic society.
As Leader of the Green Party, I am committed to living up to the ideals of our nation's founders; those who 250 years ago started the tradition of representative democracy in North America. We need to quicken the heartbeat of democracy; to reach out to those who have been turned off by politics and turn them back on. To do this, we must do politics differently.
Elected Members of Parliament for the Green Party will bring respect and decency back to the House of Commons. We will be untiring in our work for Canadians, for a secure future.
Our generation has the moral obligation to act so that our children and grandchildren are not condemned to an unlivable world. Our concern is not solely Canada's own greenhouse gases, which must be reduced dramatically, but the crafting of a better climate agreement for the world. The Harper government wants to sabotage that process.
We need to recognize that the climate crisis is an amazing economic opportunity. Moving now to shift our economy from fossil fuel dependency to a modern, efficient, low-carbon economy is possible.
With the current global financial crisis, climate action is a large part of the solution. Investing in our infrastructure will restart a sluggish economy. We must eliminate poverty – in our cities, rural areas and especially for aboriginal peoples. We will protect health care, provide universal child care, reduce student debt, and help seniors through a pharmacare plan. All of this is affordable.
To realize these goals we need a Green Caucus in the House of Commons.
Let the dogs out ~~ we'll find out on tonight's final episode of "Canada's next Prime Minister"
*********
Four leaders explain in their own words why you should support them at the ballot box today
Oct 14, 2008 04:30 AM
STEPHEN HARPER
CONSERVATIVE
Prudent plan in stormy times
I love Canada deeply and being Prime Minister is a great honour. In these times of global economic uncertainty, it's a great responsibility, too. That's why my government has weatherproofed the Canadian economy against the gathering international economic storm. The most important thing to me is that Canadian families are protected.
That's why we paid down nearly $40 billion in government debt. We lowered taxes by $3,000 a year for the average family. We brought in new reforms to Canadian banks, making them the safest and most secure in the world. We are careful with spending, making targeted investments in key manufacturing sectors, especially here in Ontario.
We did what Canadian families expect us to do – we made sensible preparations that are paying off.
Canada now has the strongest economy in the G7. Last month, more than 100,000 new jobs were created – the biggest one-month gain ever. We're going to get through this together.
Our election platform is not full of grandiose, costly promises. It's a prudent approach. We can afford it. We'll never go back into deficit.
Stéphane Dion has a different approach. His risky carbon tax proposal would make energy more expensive, increasing prices for everything from groceries to gas. It's never a good time to introduce a new tax like that, but it's especially risky these days. It's an experiment Canadians can't risk.
Dion also announced enormous spending promises that we can't afford. He would put Canada into deficit again.
There are many reasons to vote Conservative, from our sensible approach to crime to our strong support for families. But right now, the most important thing is to protect our Canadian economy – and to stop Dion's risky carbon tax.
I respectfully ask for your vote. Together we'll keep our country strong, united, independent and free.
STÉPHANE DION
LIBERAL
A richer, fairer, greener nation
At the start of this campaign, I asked Canadians a very straightforward question: Has Canada grown stronger under the Harper Conservatives?
Ask the 200,000 families who have lost good, full-time manufacturing jobs while the Harper government sat on its hands. Ask the families waiting for a child care space, or supporters of Canadian arts. Ask the growing number of people concerned about the climate change crisis, or the millions of Canadians watching their retirement savings lose value in the global financial crisis.
Stephen Harper has failed Canadians. Worse, he also has no plan to help Canadians deal with the challenges they face. To hardworking families struggling to make ends meet, Mr. Harper's response is: Look for bargains in the falling stock market. After burying their heads in the sand for months, the Conservatives are now panicking and grasping at straws.
Only the Liberal Party offers the combination of a strong record as economic managers, a strong team of experienced men and women ready to take action on Day 1, and a strong plan for Canada's future. In our first 30 days, we will invest in infrastructure projects and in the manufacturing sector to boost job creation. We have a sound approach to the financial crisis designed to protect your savings. Our plan has been endorsed by environmentalists and economists. It is supported by mayors, artists, university students, and business people.
A Liberal government will cut your taxes. We will cut greenhouse gases. We will help recruit more doctors and nurses. We will invest in public transit, infrastructure, child care and the fight against poverty.
The only job that a vote for the other parties will save is Stephen Harper's.
For a progressive government, you must vote for your local Liberal candidate.
Together, we can build a richer, fairer and greener Canada.
JACK LAYTON
NEW DEMOCRAT
We'll stand up for the people
When you vote today, ask yourself: "Which leader and which party is on my family's side?" I'm confident you will choose the New Democrats.
Prime Minister Harper doesn't care about the kitchen-table concerns of everyday families.
Mr. Harper discovered midway through this election that people are concerned about the future. He would have known that long ago if he had been speaking to everyday families.
Mr. Harper wants to strip our government's capacity to take action, by spending billions of dollars on corporate tax cuts. He calls that his plan.
Stéphane Dion doesn't have better ideas. In asking you to "stop Harper," Mr. Dion is asking you to do something he didn't do himself. Mr. Dion and his caucus sat on their hands during 43 critical votes to keep the Conservatives in power.
Worse, Mr. Dion continues to push his $40 billion carbon tax. That tax is expensive and unfair, and isn't as effective as our plan on climate change.
We've got a better plan.
We'll respond quickly and effectively to uncertainty – re-regulating banks, and introducing our plan to reinforce and reinvest in our real economy within 100 days of this election.
We'll invest in skills-training and protecting jobs; in infrastructure and transit for our cities.
We'll help families make ends meet through an enhanced Child Benefit.
We'll protect ordinary people's savings, pensions, homes and jobs.
And we'll act on other key concerns of Canadian families – like helping the five million Canadians who don't have access to a family doctor.
Our mainstream, prudent and widely adopted climate change plan will lower emissions, and clean our air and water – fairly.
Our priorities are the kitchen-table concerns of families like yours.
Vote New Democrat.
ELIZABETH MAY
GREEN
A secure future for Canadians
For too long, politics and election campaigns have been about marketing and spin doctors; war rooms and attack ads. Elections should be about the exercise of the citizens' right to choose their government in a free and democratic society.
As Leader of the Green Party, I am committed to living up to the ideals of our nation's founders; those who 250 years ago started the tradition of representative democracy in North America. We need to quicken the heartbeat of democracy; to reach out to those who have been turned off by politics and turn them back on. To do this, we must do politics differently.
Elected Members of Parliament for the Green Party will bring respect and decency back to the House of Commons. We will be untiring in our work for Canadians, for a secure future.
Our generation has the moral obligation to act so that our children and grandchildren are not condemned to an unlivable world. Our concern is not solely Canada's own greenhouse gases, which must be reduced dramatically, but the crafting of a better climate agreement for the world. The Harper government wants to sabotage that process.
We need to recognize that the climate crisis is an amazing economic opportunity. Moving now to shift our economy from fossil fuel dependency to a modern, efficient, low-carbon economy is possible.
With the current global financial crisis, climate action is a large part of the solution. Investing in our infrastructure will restart a sluggish economy. We must eliminate poverty – in our cities, rural areas and especially for aboriginal peoples. We will protect health care, provide universal child care, reduce student debt, and help seniors through a pharmacare plan. All of this is affordable.
To realize these goals we need a Green Caucus in the House of Commons.
H
Hydrogen
Guest
Sorry Moonmoth, I intended to say that there would be no coalition. I've edited my original post to reflect this. I simply don't think that the Liberals want to - or can afford to - link themselves with the ideals of the NDP. If anything, the Liberals need to emphasize their long-standing role as a centrist party. The NDP will not venture too far into that territory, and the Conservatives will inevitably run the risk of a public that will eventually want change - no matter how hard the Conservatives try to occupy the traditional electoral territory of the Liberals.
Tewder
Senior Member
You conveniently overlook that it was a free vote. Not democratic enough for you? Harper's addressing of the gay marriage issue was a token effort, not a sincere one. If he had really had some sort of sinister agenda he would have played the game and waited for a majority government to do so.
Cutting through the fear-mongering nonsense the issue at hand for the majority of reasonable Canadians is the economy. As for the Star article I wouldn't line my bird cage with it. It is hardly balanced journalism when from the very opening line it blasts Harper for the very same tactics that are then used in the article itself, which is nothing short of pure hypocracy and calls into question the credibility of the article. Not to mention that the only positive thing it has to say about the Liberals, whom it endorses, is that Dion's a nice guy.
Brandon716
Senior Member
I didn't know we put civil rights up for a vote. I thought that everyone should be treated equal, sometimes what the court system finds is justice is considered upholding the law against the tyranny of the majority.
Its pretty clear where Conservatives stand on this issue... They create those cracks in the floor even if the bottom "hasn't dropped out" with Harper at the helm, as some have stated on this forum before.
I conveniently overlook what? You conveniently overlook that we're talking about rights for individuals to be free, there's nothing free about voting to take someone's rights way. Nice play on words, its a Conservative talking point, but doesn't make it right.
kEiThZ
Superstar
1) I think your URL is wrong. I think you wish to refer to: http://www.voteforenvironment.ca/
2) That's more a wishful prediction than anything. I highly doubt the majority of the population is going to be voting with the environment as issue #1. It's the economy this time around.
That would be the death of the Liberal party and the propagation of Conservative rule for a while to come. Guess which party would be closer to the centre if a Liberal-NDP coalition came to pass?
1) Peter Mackay is incredibly popular in that riding and won his seat by a fair margin. He's no Tony Clement.
2) I highly doubt that disaffected Liberals who have no candidate to vote for will vote Green. They will either stay home or go Conservative instead.
You are referring to an article which endorsed the Liberals from the most liberal newspaper in Canada. Did you really expect them to say nice things or be fair at all with the Conservatives? If you are going to pick a centre-left editorial line at least cite the global and mail. The Star has no credibility with anyone who finished high school.
A number of points here...
1) Our constitution and charter make no provisions for same-sex rights. And that's been the case for most of our history. To argue that it's the Conservatives who are against same-sex rights is rather ignorant of the various Liberal administration that came before them that did not push the issue. Want to tell me why Trudeau didn't include same-sex rights in the Charter when drafting it, if it was so important?
2) It was a free vote...and one which saw MPs from every party in parliament vote against the bill including some Liberal MPs from the GTA. The reason most of the Conservatives voted against the bill, is that many of their MPs were from Alberta, the only province threatening to invoke the 'notwithstanding clause' to strike down same-sex marriage. Imagine running in that province and telling your constituents you voted against their wishes on a particularly important issue. It'd be like a Toronto Liberal voting against expanded immigration. I am fairly sure any Liberal from Alberta would have done the same thing.
3) Over 85% of the population lived in a province or territory that had already legalized same-sex marriage at the time of introduction of the bill. What's wrong with having the rest follow suit before introducing a national bill? People forget that this was uncharted waters. Had Alberta's case succeeded (civil status after all is in the provinces' jurisdiction), same-sex rights would have been set pretty far back.
4) Canada was hardly being a prude on this front. We were the third country in the world to allow same-sex marriage. That's a decision that a good chunk of the population was uncomfortable with at the time. I remember surveys that showed many in favour of civil unions but wanting no change in the definition of marriage. And it was quite a divisive issue, that broke down along urban/rural and regional lines. Even today, if you were to give the public the choice of same-sex unions or marriage, I am skeptical the public would choose the latter. The Liberal government of the time used it as a wedge issue, by presenting it as a same-sex rights issues (marriage or nothing) instead of making a finer distinction between marriage and civil unions (already in place). And then went after the Conservatives for voting against it, when many came out against same-sex marriage but for civil unions.
5) In short, your naive assumptions of how this issue played out in Canada is very, very simplistic. And you're attempt to paint it the Conservatives as anti-LBGT is quite similar to the Rovian tactics used by the Liberals of the day. It was despicable then and it's equally disgusting now.
Moonmoth
Active Member
The economy and the environment are one and the same. If we keep on growing and growing our economy as everyone so wants us to, the environment cannot sustain the ravages of unbridled economic growth!
They are not two different issues.
kEiThZ
Superstar
That's your take. I suspect most Canadians don't think of plant closures, failing banks, etc with the same immediacy as they do about global warming, smog, etc. If they did, the Liberals would be getting a bounce in BC where their provincial brethren brought in a carbon tax.
Moonmoth
Active Member
Yo KeithZ, it's not just my take. Oh and FYI we don't have any failing banks in Canada. CIBC had some exposure to the sub=prime housing market in the states but that's pretty much it. please stop watching CNN and be Canadian plz.
Yes there's currently some manufacturing job losses but if we truly were a progressive forward thinking society we'd be easliy segwaying those car manufacturing jobs into wind turbine manufacturing jobs or other.
Yes there's currently some manufacturing job losses but if we truly were a progressive forward thinking society we'd be easliy segwaying those car manufacturing jobs into wind turbine manufacturing jobs or other.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
In all fairness, the BC Liberal party is actually the provincial analogue of the CPC. It hasn't been affiliated with the federal Liberals since the '80s, and is largely neo-conservative now. That they introduced a carbon tax and they are nominal Liberals is a coincidence, partially brought on by their wacky political atmosphere. Just like the Australian Liberal party is actually conservative in nature.
But yes, for better or worse I don't think the environment trumps the economy during recessions. Even in BC, when Gordon Campbell introduced the carbon tax the province was flying economicly. With the Olympics & Asian growth driving a real housing bubble in Vancouver while $150 oil & record prices for other commodities had really set the interior on fire. Ironically, you can see this from Canada's last environmental PM, Brian Mulroney. The Montreal Protocol, in which he was an important figure, set the stage for the global reduction of CFCs and other O-Zone depleting gases. He also had some quite neat proposals on the table for recycling, but then when the recession hit everyone forgot about it and elected Chretien, who didn't really do anything.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I didn't say it's just your take....I said, that the Canadian public at large does not think that way.
I never said Canadian banks were failing. But our stock market is riding a roller coaster as a result of the sub-prime crisis. I am sure there are more than a few Canadians worried about what impact that will have on the Canadian economy and our finance sector.
Yes, because it's quite easy to train unionized auto workers with basic education who barely have the skills to turn their wrenches now to build high-technology wind turbines in a snap. All you can do is the set the market conditions for that. And given the size of Canada's market and export oriented economy, the market for such products would have to exist abroad before any Canadian company took it on.
Also, if that's your approach, where do you think the capital will come from for that conversion given Layton's desire to raise corporate taxes? Or Dion's less than revenue neutral (for the corporate sector at least) Green Shift?
Moonmoth
Active Member
It may be, right this instant, unfortunately that Canadians don't see the environment and the economy as one and the same, but I sense a paradigm shift in our very near future.
I will tell you this, Canadians have a LOT of experience administering taxes, we clearly know how to do this. The Carbon Tax isn't something to be afraid of, if you have a clean, non-polluting business or small business or home or office. It serves as an incentive to clean up. We (collectively) have to stop assuming that creating pollution is 'free' or that soiling our environment comes without a cost.
The cap & trade, I am not such a fan of. Simply because it will create secondary markets and we don't need more middle-men.