[Justin10000]

Cancelling the bridge involved far more intractable agencies then Metrolinx. You are presuming that Metrolinx is absolutely wedded to Transit City. We don't really know that. They are working with the plan now because the current city administration favours it.

And you're making assumptions about what I am thinking. Metrolinx has adopted portions of TC as part of their RTP. Why would they cancel it, just because a mayor wants to look like they are "anti-Miller?" Especialy when there has been media coverage of campaigns to restore full-funding toTransit City?

But there's no evidence that they aren't willing to negotiate and change tracks. Aside from that, Metrolinx takes its marching orders from Queen's Park. Do you really think that Queen's Park would not be receptive to the concerns of a new mayor (particularly one they consider friendly to their interests). The reality is that transit has always involved input from the province. Metrolinx is just a new form of that interaction.

Miller tried to convince Metrolinx to stick with the original funding, and schedule. What makes you think Metrolinx will listen to a new Mayor to cancel all funding, and build a subway? Yes, Yes. I know you are going to make some excuse about Miller being a "lame-duck" mayor...
No, I do not think Queen's Park will be receptive to a new Mayor who wants to cancel major transit project.

Again, I cite the Ottawa precedence. They cancelled a project already under way. And came out of it with successful negotiations with the feds and the province.

Now I am not advocating cancellation of the SELRT. But I would suggest that modification or cancellation is most definitely not out of the realm of possibility.

The LRT project cancellation was purely political, with a certain Mr. Baird interferng. I wonder if the Liberals were in power at the time...
If John Baird did not interfere and withhold funds until after the election, I have a feeling Ottawan might be riding LRT right now. I am not saying I was for Chiarelli's project, but you cannot ignore the Conservatives did interfere.
As it stands, there is no outside interference in Toronto's election.

 

[kEiThZ]

City Council has already approved most of Transit City. Eglinton LRT was approved last year. Sheppard East LRT started works last year. Finch West LRT EA was approved by Council at the end of January. That leaves Scarborough RT. If TTC pulls out their share of funding, don't expect the rest of the money to be spent by Metrolinx on the TTC. If Toronto doesn't want LRT, Hamilton does.

In Ottawa, their city council approved Transit City. The new council canned it. Approvals and EAs mean nothing. Projects only become moderately harder to cancel once construction starts in earnest, something that has not even happened on Sheppard yet. There's the Agincourt grade separation. But that would have happened with or without TC. Ditto for mains relocation.

And I don't buy the diversion threat. The party in power might suffer some stiff consequences if they suddenly started diverting pledged billions away from Toronto.

 

[kEiThZ]

Justin1000

You have your views. I have mine. I just don't think Metrolinx is as inflexible and as intractable as you think they are.

Anyway, we'll see in a few months, won't we?

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Justin1000

You have your views. I have mine. I just don't think Metrolinx is as inflexible and as intractable as you think they are.

Anyway, we'll see in a few months, won't we?

Justin10000 is right. Metrolinx is just not flexible and will stick with the current plan. In a few months, you will not be surprised by anything

 

[Justin10000]

Justin1000

You have your views. I have mine. I just don't think Metrolinx is as inflexible and as intractable as you think they are.

Anyway, we'll see in a few months, won't we?

From what I have read, and heard from Metrolinx. They are not as flexible as you think the agency is. I am being totally honest here. Metrolinx has a plan(The RTP), and they want to stick with it, and part of TC has been incorporated into that plan.

 

[kEiThZ]

From what I have read, and heard from Metrolinx. They are not as flexible as you think the agency is. I am being totally honest here. Metrolinx has a plan(The RTP), and they want to stick with it, and part of TC has been incorporated into that plan.

Yet, they along with the Scarborough councillors seem to have easily changed the original proposal to do a simple ART Mk II upgrade despite that being part of the original TC proposal and one that the TTC was adamant about it.

Anyway, at the end of the day, they are a provincial agency who get to answer to provincial politicians who are elected. Their room for flexibility is really determined by those politicians who are sensitive to what the voters want. Plan or not, no government agency can trump the will of voters that easily. And you can bet that those provincial politicians will react if the public wants something.

 

[Mapleson]

In Ottawa, their city council approved Transit City. The new council canned it. Approvals and EAs mean nothing. Projects only become moderately harder to cancel once construction starts in earnest, something that has not even happened on Sheppard yet. There's the Agincourt grade separation. But that would have happened with or without TC. Ditto for mains relocation.

And I don't buy the diversion threat. The party in power might suffer some stiff consequences if they suddenly started diverting pledged billions away from Toronto.

Let assume Rob Ford were Mayor and cancelled all of TC, where would the Ontario Liberal Party spend the money on Toronto infrastructure instead? What project would have any chance of starting construction before the November 2011, provincial elections? I think the Liberal's could buy more seats by giving it to the rest of the GTA. Instead of $8 billion for Toronto, $1 billion for Mississauga, Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton, Pickering, Markham, Oshawa, and Brampton each.

In the case that the Ontario PC get into power, why would they feel obligated to honour the Ontario Liberal commitment to transit infrastructure when clearly the City doesn't. If I was looking for a big number to impress votes, cutting a third of the provincial deficit without having to directly cancel any spending would be among the top. Sure it's never too late to stop, but don't think if you stop it means you can start something else. That something else will have to wait its turn like every other good idea.

 

[Mapleson]

From what I have read, and heard from Metrolinx. They are not as flexible as you think the agency is. I am being totally honest here. Metrolinx has a plan(The RTP), and they want to stick with it, and part of TC has been incorporated into that plan.

You realise the RTP has gone through at least six major interations since Metrolinx was formed? Their goal is to have a plan that covers everything, as things change, they change the plan (for example the delay and phasing to TC). There are two main factors that change the RTP, the supply of funding and the identification of specific needs.

Three years, no provincial elections, and a new board of directors isn't enough time to judge what Metrolinx is capable of achieving. I'd wait until 2013 until saying if they are flexible or not.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I do think there's certainly a chance Transit City could get cancelled and nothing built. The truly unlikely scenario some people here seem to be banking on is that TC lines get canceled, everyone agrees on a subway-based alternative and that plan goes forward quickly and with no funding issues.

To put it more simply:

LIKELY: The TC projects close to or under construction get built (Sheppard, Eglinton, Finch, Scarborough) with perhaps some minor modifications.

POSSIBLE: TC is canceled. We get five or ten more years of studies and research. Maybe a shovel hits the ground for something in 2020.

UNLIKELY: TC is canceled. The new mayor goes "Let's just adopt this plan I found on the internet calling for more subways!" The province says "Here is some cash!" The people across Toronto say "Yay!" The projects start next year.

 

[Fresh Start]

^^ But that's precisely the point though, the City does not want it. Just turn off your computers once awhile and ask any lame person in the street. You're a smaller percentage of the total population than you think. Most people would be pleased with just improved bus service, and it doesn't take multibillion dollar handouts from above to implement that either.

Any TC supporter who thinks that we ought to put the cart (light-rail feeder lines) in front of the horse (DRL) is just plain ignorant.

 

[kEiThZ]

Let assume Rob Ford were Mayor and cancelled all of TC, where would the Ontario Liberal Party spend the money on Toronto infrastructure instead? What project would have any chance of starting construction before the November 2011, provincial elections? I think the Liberal's could buy more seats by giving it to the rest of the GTA. Instead of $8 billion for Toronto, $1 billion for Mississauga, Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton, Pickering, Markham, Oshawa, and Brampton each.

In the case that the Ontario PC get into power, why would they feel obligated to honour the Ontario Liberal commitment to transit infrastructure when clearly the City doesn't. If I was looking for a big number to impress votes, cutting a third of the provincial deficit without having to directly cancel any spending would be among the top. Sure it's never too late to stop, but don't think if you stop it means you can start something else. That something else will have to wait its turn like every other good idea.

And I have pointed out the very same scenarios just a few pages back. That's why I don't support Ford.

And that's why I also think that pinning hopes for the Ontario PC party to get elected (like Juan a few pages back) is a terrible idea. I fully concur that they would probably pursue a pro-905 transit plan to the exclusion of the 416. Something I don't want to see.

 

[kEiThZ]

I do think there's certainly a chance Transit City could get cancelled and nothing built. The truly unlikely scenario some people here seem to be banking on is that TC lines get canceled, everyone agrees on a subway-based alternative and that plan goes forward quickly and with no funding issues.

To put it more simply:

LIKELY: The TC projects close to or under construction get built (Sheppard, Eglinton, Finch, Scarborough) with perhaps some minor modifications.

POSSIBLE: TC is canceled. We get five or ten more years of studies and research. Maybe a shovel hits the ground for something in 2020.

UNLIKELY: TC is canceled. The new mayor goes "Let's just adopt this plan I found on the internet calling for more subways!" The province says "Here is some cash!" The people across Toronto say "Yay!" The projects start next year.

Nobody with SOS expects the whole thing to be built. But we understand that presenting an alternative concept might spark some discussion and get some changes for the better. For example, look at Smitherman's pledge to can the SRT extension and pursue a subway extension to STC, while keeping the SELRT. Personally, that's the kind of compromise I am looking for. Though, I wouldn't complain if some candidate took the SOS plan in its entirety and pushed it forward!

 

[Fresh Start]

I do think there's certainly a chance Transit City could get cancelled and nothing built. The truly unlikely scenario some people here seem to be banking on is that TC lines get canceled, everyone agrees on a subway-based alternative and that plan goes forward quickly and with no funding issues.

Cancelling contracts is the biggest associated risk with pulling out of the Transit City boondoogle now. What's really been done thus far besides wadding the pockets of hired consultants? The plan ought to go through quickly because there's largely a concensus on which subway lines need to be built that stems back over several decades. Lengthy EA (i.e. cashgrabs) to determine 'feasibility' is bunk. None of this is new, despite what you've been led to believe by current City Council. RTES report of 2006, 2003 based on Network 2011 of 1980 based on MTP report of 1969. Queen/DRL, Eglinton to Pearson, and "rapid transit" into northeast Scarborough have always been on the agenda. BRT would be suitable for most everywhere else.

Change of government is not anything I would worry about either. Transit affects everyone: left-wing, right-wing, independent. To garner votes you promise the obvious. To get re-elected you make good on your promises (within your own term in office!).

To put it more simply:

LIKELY: The TC projects close to or under construction get built (Sheppard, Eglinton, Finch, Scarborough) with perhaps some minor modifications.

POSSIBLE: TC is canceled. We get five or ten more years of studies and research. Maybe a shovel hits the ground for something in 2020.

UNLIKELY: TC is canceled. The new mayor goes "Let's just adopt this plan I found on the internet calling for more subways!" The province says "Here is some cash!" The people across Toronto say "Yay!" The projects start next year.

A life without risk is a life not lived!

These dream scenarios are worthless because you have no way of knowing whether all funding for Toronto's mass transit expansion would evaporate by merely changing some of the stipulations. In the last four years we've seen Transit City implode from a 120 kilometre, $10 billion light-rail scheme touching every corner of the city to a measly 51 kilometres running close to $7 billion and counting. Less than half the new coverage area yet 70% of the funding still remains. If the next Mayor came along and announced we're building subways, what the fudge can Metrolinx do about it? Word has it the Metrolinx has been strongly in favor of building the Eglinton Line using subway technology; but is currently having its hands tied due to the City's insistance on building an LRT maintenance yard at Mt Dennis. So in sum, plans and priorities are fluid and with like-minded individuals on the Metrolinx board insisting on subways (which are far more urgently needed than light rail along Finch W/Sheppard E/Progress Ave) you might find a subway-based plan could have a lot more traction than TC ever did.

And once cogs in the wheel are dealt with this coming October, democracy can reign. Just like the LRTistas have been shrieking at me for months now, the Mayor earns the right to steer the agenda whichever way he sees fit because a majority of the voting public coalesced with his views.

 

[Mapleson]

Cancelling contracts is the biggest associated risk with pulling out of the Transit City boondoogle now. What's really been done thus far besides wadding the pockets of hired consultants? The plan ought to go through quickly because there's largely a concensus on which subway lines need to be built that stems back over several decades. Lengthy EA (i.e. cashgrabs) to determine 'feasibility' is bunk. None of this is new, despite what you've been led to believe by current City Council. RTES report of 2006, 2003 based on Network 2011 of 1980 based on MTP report of 1969. Queen/DRL, Eglinton to Pearson, and "rapid transit" into northeast Scarborough have always been on the agenda. BRT would be suitable for most everywhere else.

Firstly, it's not a "lengthy EA" any more for transit projects by law. Public comments are now held to about a month nor are alternative plans need to be considered, it's a "we want to do this, what are the side effects". So if you consider those improvements, then rightly complain about "lengthy EA". Next, that same law says the specific plan you are going to build, not just the 'concensus needed lines', needs a current EA within the last 3 years. I don't agree with the current form of EAs, but we do need environmental oversight and minimize impacts.

Change of government is not anything I would worry about either. Transit affects everyone: left-wing, right-wing, independent. To garner votes you promise the obvious. To get re-elected you make good on your promises (within your own term in office!).

Tim Hudak is almost halfway between becoming leader and the next election. The sum of his transit commitment so far is to say as premier he'd make sure Toronto would have access to reliable funding. On April 23, when asked if he'd restore the $4 billion cut from 'tranist expansion', he said no new spending until the books are balanced.

A life without risk is a life not lived!

These dream scenarios are worthless because you have no way of knowing whether all funding for Toronto's mass transit expansion would evaporate by merely changing some of the stipulations. In the last four years we've seen Transit City implode from a 120 kilometre, $10 billion light-rail scheme touching every corner of the city to a measly 51 kilometres running close to $7 billion and counting. Less than half the new coverage area yet 70% of the funding still remains. If the next Mayor came along and announced we're building subways, what the fudge can Metrolinx do about it? Word has it the Metrolinx has been strongly in favor of building the Eglinton Line using subway technology; but is currently having its hands tied due to the City's insistance on building an LRT maintenance yard at Mt Dennis. So in sum, plans and priorities are fluid and with like-minded individuals on the Metrolinx board insisting on subways (which are far more urgently needed than light rail along Finch W/Sheppard E/Progress Ave) you might find a subway-based plan could have a lot more traction than TC ever did.

This is part of why I support Transit City in almost any form. I also want a couple key subway lines in the next 15 years. The best plan is going to be a mix of technologies. IMO, once David Miller and his streetcar fetish are out of office, Transit City will increasing become a mix of subway and LRT. However, that doesn't mean I want to throw the baby out the with bath water in the mean time.

 

[gweed123]

The LRT project cancellation was purely political, with a certain Mr. Baird interferng. I wonder if the Liberals were in power at the time...
If John Baird did not interfere and withhold funds until after the election, I have a feeling Ottawan might be riding LRT right now. I am not saying I was for Chiarelli's project, but you cannot ignore the Conservatives did interfere.
As it stands, there is no outside interference in Toronto's election.

The LRT project in Ottawa was a municipal politics game. O'Brien realized that the original plan was deeply flawed, and he ran on a platform to cancel it and start over. And he won. In many ways, it mirror's Miller's approach with the Island Airport. Run on a pretty blunt platform of "no", and let the voters do the talking.

And as an Ottawan, I am much happier waiting an extra 10 years for a true rapid transit system than having to suffer for the next 30 with a half-assed one. The plan that has come out of the cancellation of the original plan is nothing short of spectacular. It is the way LRT should be built. It needs to be built, and I would be the first one in line to raise all hell if a mayoral candidate who runs against it purely for financial reasons ends up winning the election. I would really and truly stake my professional reputation on fighting to get that line built. I want this line (and really, the TMP in general, the entire thing is a nearly flawless document) just as badly as all the LRTistas on here want Transit City.