[BASE]

How would option 2 be more expensive? It just involves digging up a ton of earth and building two relatively small train overpasses. Option 1 looks way more expensive with how big the road overpass is (from the rendering, it seems bigger than the new 50th Street overpasses). I’m all in favour of option 2

The report notes the projected costs. I think the greater expense is on the excavation, drainage, and retaining wall work being quite a bit more than building up.

 

[Glenco]

Wouldn’t it be easier to build an elevated station

 

[thommyjo]

Do you have a source for that?
The report to Council on the WEM Transit Centre building was expecting construction within 10-15 years, which in 2015 would have meant construction by 2030, and would have meant funding in place before that. Right now that timeline is right on.
"The current proposed alignment approved by Council incorporates an elevated LRT Station above the existing transit centre. The anticipated construction time frame is within 10-15 years, depending on the pace of future LRT expansion." CR_1978 April 22, 2015

By 2016, although I don't have a direct council report for this, the City said: "While there are no timelines for additional funding, the City hopes to be ready to initiate the procurement phase as early as 2018. Once additional funding is secured, it is planned to take about one year to select a contractor for the Valley Line West and another five years to complete construction."
Clearly the City figured they would be able to get funding a lot earlier than 2030.
edmonton.ca/projects_plans/transit/project-history

Besides, the refurb would have extended the life of the shelter building 10-15 years, sufficient to extend the life to 2030 so that still doesn't explain how they went back to doing a complete rebuild vs. the approved refurbishment.

I don’t have a digital source to link to sorry. That’s just from conversations with Knack over the years. The way he explained it was “we didn’t expect funding to come so soon, so we redid SPR and WEM transit centre….then money was available for the WVLRT, so we started it sooner than expected.”

I think it might have related to the conservatives vs liberals being in power? Liberals came in and boosted transit investments?

 

[bodsbods9090]

Just do something there NOW so we aren't making changes 10-15 years from now.

Do it right from the start.

 

[husky]

How would option 2 be more expensive? It just involves digging up a ton of earth and building two relatively small train overpasses. Option 1 looks way more expensive with how big the road overpass is (from the rendering, it seems bigger than the new 50th Street overpasses). I’m all in favour of option 2

The council report outlines the costs and discusses why the cost for Option 2 is significantly more.

 

[SarcasticMarmot]

I like option 2 better as well, but not $30 million better. Maybe they can justify it by making it a stormwater collection point as they do with the freeways?

 

[Edmcowboy11]

I like option 2 better as well, but not $30 million better. Maybe they can justify it by making it a stormwater collection point as they do with the freeways?

Which brings up the question in my head, which option does city administration prefer. If city administrators would rather see one option over another one,it wouldn't be too hard to make one plan way more expensive than the one they may want.

 

[CplKlinger]

Which brings up the question in my head, which option does city administration prefer. If city administrators would rather see one option over another one,it wouldn't be too hard to make one plan way more expensive than the one they may want.

To a layman like me, their analysis seems pretty reasonable.

 

[MacLac]

How would option 2 be more expensive? It just involves digging up a ton of earth and building two relatively small train overpasses. Option 1 looks way more expensive with how big the road overpass is (from the rendering, it seems bigger than the new 50th Street overpasses). I’m all in favour of option 2

That's what I was thinking too! How come the identical'ish looking 50th St overpass is costing $120M MORE then this is beyond me.....

 

[Habibfazil]

That's what I was thinking too! How come the identical'ish looking 50th St overpass is costing $120M then this is beyond me.....

Have to agree about number 2, but studies are always suspect as they can be bought.

I'd suspect shenanigans. To quote an old alderman, "council doesn't realize that administration only shows them what suits their agenda"...

 

[yeggator]

Have to agree about number 2, but studies are always suspect as they can be bought.

I'd suspect shenanigans. To quote an old alderman, "council doesn't realize that administration only shows them what suits their agenda"...

Something tells me the agenda is: present the overpass as the cheaper option to rule out the underpass, but it’s so visually obtrusive that they’ll just say “we’ll keep it at-grade”

 

[mcr]

That's what I was thinking too! How come the identical'ish looking 50th St overpass is costing $120M MORE then this is beyond me.....

They're different projects. 50th street is being built over an active railway, including a yard partially. Plus includes complete rebuild / relocation of 80th & 82nd ave, additional small retaining walls to give access to the commercial area to the west, all while keeping traffic flowing on 50th as well as being closer to 600 meters including the ramps with a larger span than goes over the LRT here.

 

[CplKlinger]

Something tells me the agenda is: present the overpass as the cheaper option to rule out the underpass, but it’s so visually obtrusive that they’ll just say “we’ll keep it at-grade”

The report makes it pretty clear that one of these options will be needed.

Traffic Analysis
Ellerslie Road is currently a four lane divided arterial road, with future plans to widen it to six lanes. As part of the IIS00553 Capital Line South Extension Project Update and Budget Approval report, an initial traffic analysis conducted in 2021 using forecasted peak 2050 traffic volumes indicated that grade separation of LRT across Ellerslie Road performed better than an at grade option.

As part of the 2024 feasibility study, a subsequent traffic analysis was conducted to assess the potential impacts of Ellerslie Road going over or under the LRT, using the same forecasted peak traffic volumes in 2050. The analysis indicated that having no grade separation would increase traffic delays on Ellerslie Road, particularly for eastbound traffic. Additional traffic delays at the intersection, during peak hours, were projected to range from 20 to 30 seconds with the existing four lane configuration and from 10 to 25 seconds with the proposed six lane configuration.

These delays are less than the anticipated delays at the 127 Street and 135 Street intersections with the proposed six lane Ellerslie Road configuration. The introduction of grade separation, either with an overpass or underpass, is expected to mitigate these delays by eliminating direct interactions between road traffic and the LRT.

The overpass option would facilitate smooth traffic flow over the LRT, reducing the likelihood of traffic congestion. However, it is worth noting there would be temporary traffic disruptions during overpass construction. The underpass option would similarly eliminate traffic-LRT interactions, but construction would cause more traffic disruption than the overpass due to deep excavation and advanced drainage systems.

Cost Analysis
The feasibility study included preliminary cost estimates for the grade separation options in 2023 dollars at approximately -30/+50 per cent confidence level. These cost estimates are early stage approximations and would continue to be refined through design development. The overpass option is estimated at $64 million for a six lane crossing. This cost includes earthworks, utility relocation, overpass construction and traffic management. The overpass design, with its relatively straightforward engineering and reduced need for extensive groundwater management, presents a more predictable cost.

In contrast, the underpass option is estimated at $99 million for a six lane crossing. This higher
cost reflects the additional expense related to deep excavation, complex structural requirements such as retaining walls and the implementation of permanent water mitigation solutions. Greater exposure to unforeseen ground conditions contributes to increased risks associated with the underpass option. Both grade separation options are feasible and viable. However, the overpass is assessed to be less expensive and less complex.

 

[fromyeg]

The report makes it pretty clear that one of these options will be needed.

Traffic Analysis
Ellerslie Road is currently a four lane divided arterial road, with future plans to widen it to six lanes. As part of the IIS00553 Capital Line South Extension Project Update and Budget Approval report, an initial traffic analysis conducted in 2021 using forecasted peak 2050 traffic volumes indicated that grade separation of LRT across Ellerslie Road performed better than an at grade option.

As part of the 2024 feasibility study, a subsequent traffic analysis was conducted to assess the potential impacts of Ellerslie Road going over or under the LRT, using the same forecasted peak traffic volumes in 2050. The analysis indicated that having no grade separation would increase traffic delays on Ellerslie Road, particularly for eastbound traffic. Additional traffic delays at the intersection, during peak hours, were projected to range from 20 to 30 seconds with the existing four lane configuration and from 10 to 25 seconds with the proposed six lane configuration.

These delays are less than the anticipated delays at the 127 Street and 135 Street intersections with the proposed six lane Ellerslie Road configuration. The introduction of grade separation, either with an overpass or underpass, is expected to mitigate these delays by eliminating direct interactions between road traffic and the LRT.

The overpass option would facilitate smooth traffic flow over the LRT, reducing the likelihood of traffic congestion. However, it is worth noting there would be temporary traffic disruptions during overpass construction. The underpass option would similarly eliminate traffic-LRT interactions, but construction would cause more traffic disruption than the overpass due to deep excavation and advanced drainage systems.

Cost Analysis
The feasibility study included preliminary cost estimates for the grade separation options in 2023 dollars at approximately -30/+50 per cent confidence level. These cost estimates are early stage approximations and would continue to be refined through design development. The overpass option is estimated at $64 million for a six lane crossing. This cost includes earthworks, utility relocation, overpass construction and traffic management. The overpass design, with its relatively straightforward engineering and reduced need for extensive groundwater management, presents a more predictable cost.

In contrast, the underpass option is estimated at $99 million for a six lane crossing. This higher
cost reflects the additional expense related to deep excavation, complex structural requirements such as retaining walls and the implementation of permanent water mitigation solutions. Greater exposure to unforeseen ground conditions contributes to increased risks associated with the underpass option. Both grade separation options are feasible and viable. However, the overpass is assessed to be less expensive and less complex.

Widen Ellerslie to six lanes?

That’ll fix traffic.

 

[Habibfazil]

w

Widen Ellerslie to six lanes?

That’ll fix traffic.

worked in California eh?