[ShonTron]

If you do not retract your attacks on Hipster Duck, I'll do it for you.

 

[Moonmoth]

Ah, but you accused me of equating Pinochet with Chavez. Let's examine this fallacy of logic. In your original post to Mot you argued that Latin American leaders have a tradition of oration without referencing Chavez. I countered by saying that I'd rather Bush or Harper as a leader than most of the leaders in Latin America. You said that was disgusting and I countered that it was not as disgusting as Pinochet. You then accused me of equating Chavez with Pinochet.

Here are the facts:

1. Pinochet was a Latin American leader
2. Pinochet gave speeches
3. Chavez is a Latin American leader
4. Chavez gives speeches
5. I did not mention the name Hugo Chavez until you accused me of equating him with Pinochet (Yesterday, 9:04PM)

On an internet forum quoting the rules of logic is exactly like a Board of Directors referencing Robert Rules, when the only time a Board uses Roberts Rules is when it's completely dysfuntional!

Now, based on these facts, how is "name dropping" synonymous with equating?

You were using Pinochet's name and banking on many people's ignorance of what he did, using Pinochet while dicussing Chavez is associating them together, it's using one to invoke the other when they are NOTHING REMOTELY alike. You could have used Salvador Allende another great orator but nooooooo you used Pinochet; a butcher, a human rights violator, a dictator.

 

[Moonmoth]

yeah that

 

[Moonmoth]

!Y QUE VIVA CHAVEZ!

​

 

[Mot]

For the millionth time if I have to, Chavez is a democratically elected leader. Not a dictator. If the people decide he can have more terms as president it will be a decision made by the people. Not a top-down, imposed one. Chavez is loved Urban Toronto readers, dearly and vehemently, in Venezuela and all over the world.

Chavez manages to fool the poor in his country into loving him. Just like Peron and his wife managed to do in Argentina. More than half of the US loved Bush until around 2006.

As Hipster said just because we don't like Chavez and his dictator-lite tactics does not mean we support his opposition as well. Chavez has done some good for the country like increasing access to healthcare, but that does not outweigh his actions against democracy. His schemes to change the Venezuelan Constitution and threats of using the military for his own political gain.

I tried to post my pictures of the barrio taken in January to prove you lied about them being fixed up. My pics would not post. I personally witnessed the food and necessity shortages in the supermarkets. Hipster is right, you don't know how to debate or discuss this topic.

 

[kEiThZ]

Keeping politics out of it....none of that detracts from complaints about the misuse of petrol and the lack of recycling programs (my pet peeve too).

As for Chavez investing his oil wealth wisely, he's done such bang up job that Venezuela's output has begun to decline for the first time. Let's see how he does this year with reduced output and lower global prices. It's going to be much harder when you can't blame Bush for all your problems at home.

 

[Moonmoth]

Chavez manages to fool the poor in his country into loving him. Just like Peron and his wife managed to do in Argentina. More than half of the US loved Bush until around 2006.

If by 'fooling the poor' you mean instituting access to healthcare in the barrios and beyond, literacy programs, communal hydroponic and community gardens, then so be it. I call it social programs which benefit many many previously ignored, people.

Chavez has done some good for the country like increasing access to healthcare, but that does not outweigh his actions against democracy. His schemes to change the Venezuelan Constitution and threats of using the military for his own political gain.

Please give an example your so-called 'actions against democracy'. Calling Bush a turkey? Ooooh so scary. Chavez instituted the Constitution through popular referendum, any changes will be decided upon by the people through a vote.

I personally witnessed the food and necessity shortages in the supermarkets.

Whatevs. You were probably shopping in escualido owned supermercados and centros commerciales - did you think about going downtown to buy produce?? Chavez countered this economic sabotage by instituting the vast communal gardens programs so people can grow their own food and be less reliant on escualido supermarkets who simply shut down to show their displeasure against Chavez during the 2002 attempted coup.

 

[Moonmoth]

Keeping politics out of it....none of that detracts from complaints about the misuse of petrol and the lack of recycling programs (my pet peeve too).

They should, of course, institute recycling programs, hopefully that will come soon. Look how long it;s taken Canada and we're not even as efficient as we could be, it varies from city to city here, Ottawa does nothing, toronto is more forward thinking with respect to recycling programs. But Caracas was one of the first cities to restrict cars (using license plate numbers) to reduce smog in the downtown core.

As for Chavez investing his oil wealth wisely, he's done such bang up job that Venezuela's output has begun to decline for the first time.

I already quoted in an earlier post the map of the world recently published in the Toronto Star which shows which countries are up to their necks in debt, Canada definitely is. Venezuela is NOT. I repeat:

http://multimedia.thestar.com/acroba...780a0a7b97.pdf

 

[Moonmoth]

Found some info on Venezuelan recycling programs and environmental issues:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/797

cell phone recycling program in Vlza:

http://www.recellular.com/about/news36.asp


http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3324

There's also a quote by Marc Weisbrot from the above article which I think is worth quoting here:

Oil, Environment and Revolution in Venezuela

Venezuela's Bolivarian Revolution, led by President Hugo Chavez, has made progress in fighting poverty, expanding access to health care and boosting literacy rates through the misiónes (social missions) and other government initiatives. According to economist Mark Weisbrot, "The proportion of households in poverty has dropped by 38 percent." The Bolivarian Revolution has also for the first time brought the Venezuelan majority, long excluded by a light-skinned wealthy elite, into a participatory and democratic political process.

 

[Mot]

We shopped in Palo Verde and near Petare, hardly a wealthy area.

You were given examples and quotes already by Chavez and his threat to use military force in the election. He wants to change the constitution so he can be President for life. Hipster already provided you plenty of examples of his misuse of power.

Another example, Chavez is cutting off funding to any area that does not vote for him. I witnessed this myself with a road they stop working on the day before the election because Sucre district did not vote for his party.

Esqualido- means emaciated. Chavez uses this term to show he is the ultimate power, even above the law.

Once again I said I am happy he helps the poor in some areas like healthcare, but he's not helping their future by destroying their democracy. I am a socialist, and Chavez and his party are not socialists, just power hungry politicians. I for one cheered when he embarrassed Bush at the UN.

"Whatevs"- You have got to be kidding with this type of writing, it shows a lack of maturity and thought.

 

[Moonmoth]

You were given examples and quotes already by Chavez and his threat to use military force in the election. He wants to change the constitution so he can be President for life. Hipster already provided you plenty of examples of his misuse of power.

Hipster certainly did not. No one posting so far on this thread has given me a concrete example of Chavez's supposed misuses of power. Funny how no one cares when George W. Bush misuses his power, they only raise a stink when a Latin American leftist leader invests in his own country and Canada is suspicious of Venezuela for it, though Canada & Venezuela share an interest in social programs.

Another example, Chavez is cutting off funding to any area that does not vote for him. I witnessed this myself with a road they stop working on the day before the election because Sucre district did not vote for his party.

The above statement is completely meaningless, you saw a road block in Sucre, therefore Chavez cut off funding to Sucre? Try again. If there was a raod blpck there clearly the government had a presence in Sucre not the other way around.

Esqualido- means emaciated. Chavez uses this term to show he is the ultimate power, even above the law.

Chavez once used the word escualido to describe the opposition as those "standing in the corner" it has come in to colloquial use as a term to describe opposition members who blame all of their everyday problems on the president of the country.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Escualido

Once again I said I am happy he helps the poor in some areas like healthcare, but he's not helping their future by destroying their democracy.

How is he destroying democaracy? Infact he is encouraging it by empowering the people and giving life to participatory democratic practices.

"Whatevs"- You have got to be kidding with this type of writing, it shows a lack of maturity and thought.

Pffft.

 

[Mot]

Urban Dictionary is being used as source. LOL
You have got to be joking. People know exactly what Chavez means.

You and Chavez believe in Socialism via gun and any mean necessesary, I don't.

http://http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/02/06/pol_ava_denuncian--ante-el-c_06A2216933.shtml

El Universal is reporting voter fraud by Chavistas. A proven example is one man voting 10 times.

Chavez incited violence against Jews in Venezuela that had nothing to do with what is going on in Israel. 7 of his government fuctionairies were detained for descerating a synogogue.

This was done after a hate speech he made.

I've already posted in the thread where Chavez threatened military force if his ally lost the election.

Chavez mentions tanks if ally loses Venezuela vote



Your source is from the Chavez propaganda team. I love this piece of unbiased journalism from you link. "It is 10 years ago this week that Hugo Chavez became president of Venezuela. His achievements there have a huge significance in the world."

 

[Moonmoth]

http://http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/02/06/pol_ava_denuncian--ante-el-c_06A2216933.shtml

El Universal is reporting voter fraud by Chavistas. A proven example is one man voting 10 times.

Venezuelan elections are monitored by international groups, the Carter Centre disagrees with your claim of voter fraud.

Also, El Universal is an escualido publication. Reporting misinformation against Chavez is their policy.

Chavez incited violence against Jews in Venezuela that had nothing to do with what is going on in Israel. 7 of his government fuctionairies were detained for descerating a synogogue.

This is a load of crapola. Please, truly think about it for a second. Regrettably there have been hate crimes against Jews in France, Australia and many other countries inlcuding Canada. Are the leaders of those countries ever to blame for the actions of a few people? No, never. Did the world blame Stephen Harper when this happened? No they did not.

Chavez himself condemns the attack on the Venezuelan synagogue.

This is a complicated issue that I don't really want to be distracted by right now. All I will say is through this example; yes, Chavez speaks out against the American administration; his widely publicized comments about Mr. Bush are a case in point. But Chavez does not despise the American people, he continues to sell oil cheaply to the American people. And indeed, Chavez opposes the policies of Israel which currently involves bombing the Gaza strip. That doesn't mean his government hates Jews as you insinuate.

"It is 10 years ago this week that Hugo Chavez became president of Venezuela. His achievements there have a huge significance in the world."

Yeah that's a great quote! Thanks for reposting!

 

[kEiThZ]

No one posting so far on this thread has given me a concrete example of Chavez's supposed misuses of power.

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/ago04/18e8.htm

Surely, firing 18 000 skilled workers from the state oil sector for striking should count as a misuse of power. What would you be saying if any of our leaders did that?

I already quoted in an earlier post the map of the world recently published in the Toronto Star which shows which countries are up to their necks in debt, Canada definitely is. Venezuela is NOT. I repeat:

http://multimedia.thestar.com/acroba...780a0a7b97.pdf

Because that's the measure of the success of the country? If they are doing so well financially why is their HDI lower than ours? Life expectancy. Ditto. Literacy. Ditto.

So what if they have no debt. That would be expected of any oil rich jurisdiction. Alberta's got no debt either. But guess what, Alberta's got literacy, life expectancy and quality of life indicators that would blow Venezuela out of the water. Want a more left leaning example? How about Norway? So what's your point? Great they have no debt. Let's see what they do when the oil runs out. The way Chavez is running the sector it'll be sooner rather than later:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0531/p04s01-woam.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Oil/idUSTRE50T6QG20090130

It's amazing how their fiscal prudence has resulted in the oil companies not being able to pay their own employees. And let's see how happy people are when he has to make hard choices like cutting social programs or maintaining that lovely zero debt position that you praise the Venezuelans for.

You were given examples and quotes already by Chavez and his threat to use military force in the election. He wants to change the constitution so he can be President for life.

But Hugo is such a nice guy, who wouldn't want to live in his dictatorship? Sure he'll be president for life. But it's all about "particpatory democracy"....as long as that does not mean putting el presidente's job up for free and fair elections.

Didn't you get the memo? We are following in the footsteps of all the great leaders who were elected and then stuck to the job for life. There was that guy with the short moustache in Germany in the 30s too. Very much the populist. Got in. Then took over for life and blamed his problems on someone else. It's a proven recipe for success.

 

[kEiThZ]

Casaguy nice pics. The scenery looks gorgeous. The buildings do look a tad dated though on close inspection.