[Whoaccio]

Do councilors *have* to recuse themselves from votes if a family member is a member of either union? Is it a bylaw or are these councilors just blowing hot air? I swear to go if Milczyn and Shiner just don't vote on this to make a point about courtesy or something, I am moving to Markham because this place is evidently governed worse than in Lord of the Flies.

 

[SimonP]

Excellent post. What is the graph trying to prove? That Toronto gets good value for money with it's garbage collection? Certainly not.

What it proves is that Toronto's garbage collection is cheaper than average for the province. Could it be cheaper if it were contracted out? Perhaps, but we aren't being gouged by a garbage system greatly out of whack with the rest of the province.

While higher density may mean that Toronto's garbage should be cheaper, there are factors that would make collection more expensive in Toronto. For instance, cost of living is higher here than anywhere else in Canada. The average cost of living in London is 33% cheaper than Toronto. Wages are thus higher in Toronto and it is reasonable to expect garbage workers to be paid more here.

 

[Hank]

Yes I do. Of course.

So I guess you do have mansions and yachts and properties in the Cayman Islands (since that's what the top 1.5 billion apparently have). Congrats.

 

[Dilla]

What it proves is that Toronto's garbage collection is cheaper than average for the province. Could it be cheaper if it were contracted out? Perhaps, but we aren't being gouged by a garbage system greatly out of whack with the rest of the province.

While higher density may mean that Toronto's garbage should be cheaper, there are factors that would make collection more expensive in Toronto. For instance, cost of living is higher here than anywhere else in Canada. The average cost of living in London is 33% cheaper than Toronto. Wages are thus higher in Toronto and it is reasonable to expect garbage workers to be paid more here.

I think the higher cost of living would be more than offset by the density, and who says garbage workers live in the city?

At any rate, we're all just making guesses here; look at Etobicoke's experience, I think the argument can pretty much end there. There is certainly no reason to presuppose that Toronto would not have the exact same cost savings, and eliminate strikes from happening.

 

[JasonParis]

...unless the private sector workers decided to unionize.

 

[Whoaccio]

^
They are unionized, and they are still cheaper.

 

[JasonParis]

Well what I really meant is that it doesn't eliminate the possibility of strikes.

 

[kEiThZ]

...unless the private sector workers decided to unionize.

Much of the savings in the Etobicoke example come from not from wages themselves but from higher productivity. One would hope that even if they unionized, that they would work just as hard. I certainly would support those hard-working workers getting paid a lot more. I even feel that doubling their pay is justified.

 

[cdr108]

Well what I really meant is that it doesn't eliminate the possibility of strikes.

The garbage collectors are unionized and there was a clause in the tender that strike would not occur.

 

[cdr108]

Much of the savings in the Etobicoke example come from not from wages themselves but from higher productivity. One would hope that even if they unionized, that they would work just as hard. I certainly would support those hard-working workers getting paid a lot more. I even feel that doubling their pay is justified.

Private Contract Unionized vs. Public Unionized Garbage Collector

wages are $18 vs. $25;
productivity are 36 vs. 71 employees to do the EXACT SAME WORK.

productivity gains should be implemented with the new contract.
From what I see, the City collectors also have it easier (less manual labour) since it's all mechanized, while the Private may still be doing it manually from what I saw on the news clips.

 

[SimonP]

Does density actually help reduce costs of garbage? From one of the OMBI reports: "collection efficiency is reduced in the dense urban downtown core due to on-street parking, one way streets, and high traffic volumes." Would you rather drive a giant truck around Etobicoke or around Cabbagetown? Houses might be closer together in Cabbagetown, but you would get through the job a fair bit faster in Etobicoke.

Looking at the chart it doesn't seem like density really has much effect. Big cities like Hamilton and Ottawa are at both ends of the scale, as are rural areas like Muskoka and Brant.

Contracting out doesn't seem to have much of an effect either. The only cities in Ontario that today have in-house collection are Oshawa, Windsor, and Toronto. All three are around the median price for the province.

 

[cdr108]

Contracting out doesn't seem to have much of an effect either. The only cities in Ontario that today have in-house collection are Oshawa, Windsor, and Toronto. All three are around the median price for the province.

interesting that you say that ... looked at another way, these cities are actually raising the median price.

compared to other municipalities like Ottawa and Peel, .... we are paying 15-20% more.

 

[SimonP]

interesting that you say that ... looked at another way, these cities are actually raising the median price.

compared to other municipalities like Ottawa and Peel, .... we are paying 15-20% more.

compared to other municipalities like Hamilton and Sudbury, .... we are paying 50-60% less.

The median price of the three cities that do collection in-house is 93, right around the average on the graph. They are thus neither raising nor lowering the median cost.

What would really be interesting is to see the cost per tonne of the contract in Etobicoke. Does anyone have that number?

 

[Eug]

Garbage collection in Toronto is bi-weekly. How many of these other cities have weekly garbage collection?

EDIT:

I just checked Hamilton. It's weekly.

 

[marathe]

Do councilors *have* to recuse themselves from votes if a family member is a member of either union? Is it a bylaw or are these councilors just blowing hot air? I swear to go if Milczyn and Shiner just don't vote on this to make a point about courtesy or something, I am moving to Markham because this place is evidently governed worse than in Lord of the Flies.

Yes. Its part of Council's procedure (and Robert's rules of order); if they vote on something that they have a personal interest on (ie: the terms and conditions of the employment of their family members) they could be seen as voting not on behalf of their constitutents but instead to benefit their family members.

Same reason why Case Ootes had to leave during the discussions surrounding Non-Union compensation in April of 2009: his son works for EDCT at the City.