Ladies Mile
Active Member
It's a bit like Battery Park City, no? Although I must admit that BPC addresses the Hudson and the harbour quite beautifully.
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- Thread starter M II A II R II K
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Torontovibe
Senior Member
I don't see how much improvement can happen here. In most parts of the city you have older buildings that can be torn down, parking lots that can be redeveloped or old warehouses that can be converted into theatres or retail. Since all the developable land is being used for condos, and I don't see them tearing down any of the new towers for a long, long time, where is the room for things/life to develop? The only possible hope for change would be if they turn some of those live/work units facing Bremner, into retail, services or entertainment uses. I don't expect that to happen but that's the only possibility I see for any hope at all. Cityplace takes from the city but gives very little back besides that cheap out of a park. (Have you guys seen it in person? Not inviting at all, so far) I hope the city never allows a development like this to happen again. Keep suburbia in the suburbs. Better yet, just get rid of all old style suburbia and be a real city.
NO MORE DEAD ZONES, PLEASE!!!
NO MORE DEAD ZONES, PLEASE!!!
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The location is obviously not the problem on Front. The problem is the size and other qualities of the sterile little cubicles themselves, as well as the extremely-counterproductive awnings that almost completely block the signage while not blocking any rain or sun.
Banks (and stores like pharmacies and chain coffee shops) are going to occupy major corners pretty much everywhere, so the only way to avoid them is to build a circular road with no breaks in the retail.
One big problem along Spadina is the limited pedestrian movements at intersections...and the mammoth size and oppressiveness of the roadway itself.
Archivist
Senior Member
I had a friend from Vancouver visit recently and we walked along the waterfront with a particular emphasis on new developments and parks (HtO, Ireland Park, Canoe Landing, even the Music Garden was new for her). She loved Canoe Landing, even though it remains fenced off and still a bit raw feeling. She returned to it the next day for her morning jog - and this is what she wrote me later, from Vancouver: When I got there, I started reading the signs and realized it was, to the day, the 30th anniversary of Terry Fox's run which started on April 12, 1980. And that you have to loop twice to make a mile. So I looped it 20 times to get in 10 miles (which added to the 2 miles from Union Station gave me my long run). It seemed like the right thing to do. I have no problem with someone not liking the park, but I certainly don't find it cheap and I thought you might be interested to hear a dissenting opinion.
And for me, I remain agnostic about CityPlace. It's not a place I would take visitors to, nor do I have much reason to be there myself. Nonetheless, many of us look at the St. Lawrence neighbourhood on the opposite side of downtown along the Esplanade as a success on its own terms - though it feels cloistered from the rest of the city, though it's architecture has a sameness to it that is somewhat deadening, and though it lacks retail or any particular reason to go there. As a primarily residential area nested in the centre of a large city it is successful. So, too, might be CityPlace.
And for me, I remain agnostic about CityPlace. It's not a place I would take visitors to, nor do I have much reason to be there myself. Nonetheless, many of us look at the St. Lawrence neighbourhood on the opposite side of downtown along the Esplanade as a success on its own terms - though it feels cloistered from the rest of the city, though it's architecture has a sameness to it that is somewhat deadening, and though it lacks retail or any particular reason to go there. As a primarily residential area nested in the centre of a large city it is successful. So, too, might be CityPlace.
grey
Senior Member
I'd argue that the location on Front St most definitely a contributing factor to the problem, at least in this point in time. It's uninviting, extremely traffic-heavy, windy, and reeks of sewage. This will hopefully change when the other corners are developed. Until then, this corner + badly designed retail spaces = vicious cycle of retail death.
Anyway, my point was not to pity the lame retail that's there, but that a substantial ~Boutique Shopping Experience~ here isn't necessary at all. Drugstore, grocery store, some other necessities, fine, but retail should not be the universal solution to enlivening a neighbourhood. Especially when there are concentrated shopping thoroughfares nearby (King, Queen, Spadina)
syn
Senior Member
I think it will probably be quite a while before it becomes anything close to interesting. The problem is it's still quite disconnected. In time I'd hope for a greater integration with the waterfront and the rest of its surroundings (though that may never happen with the Gardiner in the way).
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GrinTO
Active Member
I can thankfully say I'm a Former resident of Cityplace after near 2 years of living there. The building I resided in had continuous problems, the most annoying were elevator related.
As for the area, certainly not every street does need extensive retail, but near the downtown core and waterfront you would expect more than 2 banks and a grocery store (west of Spadina).
I had been patiently awaiting the Parks actual opening since the Political opening party last August. The park has been complete to the point that even the garbage containers had bags placed in them by last November and the lights working and tested, yet it's fenced still and security guards patrol it and tell people they are in a construction site please leave. I'm not sure who is in blame for the delay but it was certainly annoying to be looking out at the completed off limits park. The same can be said for the completed Spadina pedestrian underpass.
This area may have been quite different if one corporation had not had a monopoly on developing the area, and I hope the TCHC buildings/schools bring some life to this really sterile area but this will never be anything like the St Lawrence Market area.
As for the area, certainly not every street does need extensive retail, but near the downtown core and waterfront you would expect more than 2 banks and a grocery store (west of Spadina).
I had been patiently awaiting the Parks actual opening since the Political opening party last August. The park has been complete to the point that even the garbage containers had bags placed in them by last November and the lights working and tested, yet it's fenced still and security guards patrol it and tell people they are in a construction site please leave. I'm not sure who is in blame for the delay but it was certainly annoying to be looking out at the completed off limits park. The same can be said for the completed Spadina pedestrian underpass.
This area may have been quite different if one corporation had not had a monopoly on developing the area, and I hope the TCHC buildings/schools bring some life to this really sterile area but this will never be anything like the St Lawrence Market area.
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Archivist
Senior Member
I should be clear about my comparison - the area along Front Street East and north of that is a fine-grained intriguing area with a variety of building types, built over the course of many years and continually added to. My comparison is with the buildings along the Esplanade, built 1978-1982 (with some stragglers after) and frequently cited (here and elsewhere) as a good example of urban planning. If there is a difference between CityPlace and the Esplanade in any significant way other than the mix of ownership and building form, I'm not able to see it.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
You're agreeing with me, that the location isn't the problem.
What's the busiest store on the block? Rabba. What's the only store larger than a shoebox and the only one under the Matrix buildings with a visible street presence, not completely hidden behind pillars and under awnings? Rabba. Stores under the Apex buildings are not completely hidden and will eventally see more foot traffic as nearby sites are developed, but should the retail spots just stay empty until then? Who cares if there's turnover in the meantime...there's always turnover with retail in new areas. Unless it's a basic store like a bank or a pharmacy it takes a while to get settled, but you can't fit a TD Bank or a Shoppers or a Loblaws in a 500 sq.ft cubbyhole.
We obviously don't need retail on every single alleyway and cul-de-sac. Retail is clearly very viable and very desirable along major streets like Front and Spadina that already have a fair amount of it nearby, but when the retail spaces are very poorly designed, it won't accomplish much. Add extremely inflexible signage opportunities and god knows what kind of leasing rates and restrictions and you may never see interesting businesses pop up. Front would be less vibrant without the retail - as foot-shootingly poorly designed as it and most other token condo retail is - not more vibrant.
Coltaine79
Active Member
Hume (as I recall) used to be the guy who bashed Yonge/Sheppard and Yonge/NYCC - but now he's in support of CityPlace? Puh-lease...
There are loads of awesome neighborhoods and condo complexes in downtown. CityPlace ain't one of them. Unless you're a renter, and you want someplace "new" and "cheap". :/
There are loads of awesome neighborhoods and condo complexes in downtown. CityPlace ain't one of them. Unless you're a renter, and you want someplace "new" and "cheap". :/
syn
Senior Member
I think the form is what makes most people give it a pass. It's a nice looking area with a lot of nice shops, etc. Even though it isn't the most lively area, there's a certain charm to it.
CityPlace lacks that.
adma
Superstar
Chuck
Senior Member
Cityplace's problems are centred around the lack of direct, fast transit. With a single streetcar line servicing it that can at best take you to Union Station, it is easier and faster to get downtown from Yonge and Eglinton than it is from Cityplace. Regardless of what parks and retail are built at Cityplace, it's really not worth the hassle of going there when there are much more accessible places already on the way. The most vibrant neighbourhoods in the city thrive due to both local and regional foot traffic brought in by public transit.
Maybe the TTC should run a branch of the Queen streetcar down to Spadina and Queen's Quay. Or install streetcar tracks on Bremner, and have the streetcars continue into the downtown core on Queen or King streets. Until then, getting to City place involves too many streetcar transfers to be convenient, which in turn will stifle infiltration from the rest of the city.
Edit: the rail corridor should also be decked over between Bathurst and Spadina to open up Cityplace to the rest of city. Forget the Gardiner, the rail corridor is by far a bigger obstacle in the downtown area.
Maybe the TTC should run a branch of the Queen streetcar down to Spadina and Queen's Quay. Or install streetcar tracks on Bremner, and have the streetcars continue into the downtown core on Queen or King streets. Until then, getting to City place involves too many streetcar transfers to be convenient, which in turn will stifle infiltration from the rest of the city.
Edit: the rail corridor should also be decked over between Bathurst and Spadina to open up Cityplace to the rest of city. Forget the Gardiner, the rail corridor is by far a bigger obstacle in the downtown area.
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spadina car north to Queen, Queen car to downtown. Voila. No big deal.
Chuck
Senior Member
Not so when you just miss both, when the King or Queen streetcars are too busy to get on, or when it's cold and rainy outside. By going south to Queen's Quay, you still have infrequent service, have to divert southward out of your way, and must transfer to a short subway ride north. With so many thousands of people living at Cityplace, running some streetcars up Spadina then east into downtown would be a cheap way to improve connectivity using existing infrastructure. Just an idea.