[rdaner]

As PortsToronto is in the news with the
Island Airport I thought that it might be a good time to dust this thread off. 51 passenger ships will dock this year and the number will keep growing annually so there is discussion behind the scenes about what to do in the longer term. Some questions are location, size and related activities. While I can see a case to be made for building a new terminal on the Airport Lands I don’t have any inside knowledge.

But I do have some experience with terminals in other cities and can share that most are getting new facilities that are centrally located. Examples are Montreal, Liverpool, Istanbul and even Port Colbourne! WaterfrontToronto and PortsToronto are set to release a Maritime Strategy this Fall so this will be a part of that.

That is all I will say for now but will include some images of other cruise ship terminals. And if Milwaukee can do a nice job surely we can pull something together!

Istanbul

Copenhagen

Sydney

Southampton

Miami

New York

Vancouver

 

[lenaitch]

Cruise ships that ply the Great Lakes don't need elaborate facilities. The current fleet seem quite at home at the 'town docks' of places like Midland and Parry Sound. Connectivity to to shore activities and facilities, as well as other modes of transport if it is a terminus port would be key.

 

[innsertnamehere]

yup. The largest cruise ship on the great lakes holds less than 400 passengers. Hardly one of the massive ocean-liners.

Cruise Ship traffic will likely continue to grow on the Great Lakes, and we may indeed need an improved facility over our current offering, but it's never going to need to be anything particularly elaborate. Honestly, the current facility is rather substantial already for what it serves as it was built for the (planned) high volume Toronto-Rochester ferry.

 

[Dan416]

Yeah as much as I love cities with actual cruise ships, Toronto does not get those. Is it even possible for those huge cruise ships to come down the St Lawrence this far? I'm guessing no.

 

[rdaner]

When I posted those images I only wanted to convey that most cities have very central facilities that are a successful part of waterfront districts and not the size. My bad!

I will, however, restate that this recent development is rapidly growing as more cruise lines specializing in smaller ships are starting next year so we may see a doubling of passenger numbers. For example Hapag-Lloyd and Great Lakes Cruises will add ships on top of the expansion of Vikings sailings. And there are new routes being added as well such as Toronto to Greenland/Iceland and Boston/NY to Toronto.

I will post a few images of what other Great Lakes cities are doing as that would be more relevant. As Toronto is now the largest city on the Great Lakes in most measures it has become the departure point and home base for the industry thus seeing additional economic benefits.

 

[rbt]

Yeah as much as I love cities with actual cruise ships, Toronto does not get those. Is it even possible for those huge cruise ships to come down the St Lawrence this far? I'm guessing no.

Viking Polaris/Octanis and Ponant's Le Champlain (205m x 24m and ~130m x 18m) all make regular ocean crossings. Le Champlain even has a 1C ice-breaker spec and bounces around Iceland periodically. When they're not in the Great Lakes they're generally running Caribbean/Central America, or the Baltic Sea. Not the giant floating amusement park cruise ships but a road doesn't need to be 18+ lanes to be a highway: these are actual cruise ships.

The St. Lawrence seaway, Welland Canal, and SOO locks can handle boats that size (max ~225m x 24m) but there are very few tourist oriented ports on the Great Lakes for excursions. The Viking cruises which terminate at Toronto seem to sell the best; Toronto to Nuuk (Greenland) sales will be interesting to see.

 

[Dan416]

When I posted those images I only wanted to convey that most cities have very central facilities that are a successful part of waterfront districts and not the size. My bad!

I will, however, restate that this recent development is rapidly growing as more cruise lines specializing in smaller ships are starting next year so we may see a doubling of passenger numbers. For example Hapag-Lloyd and Great Lakes Cruises will add ships on top of the expansion of Vikings sailings. And there are new routes being added as well such as Toronto to Greenland/Iceland and Boston/NY to Toronto.

I will post a few images of what other Great Lakes cities are doing as that would be more relevant. As Toronto is now the largest city on the Great Lakes in most measures it has become the departure point and home base for the industry thus seeing additional economic benefits.

OK cool I had no idea Hapag-Lloyd even did cruises, never mind ones that came to Toronto. Pretty interesting!

HANSEATIC nature · HANSEATIC inspiration · HANSEATIC spirit - THE NEW EXPEDITION CLASS

HANSEATIC nature · HANSEATIC inspiration · HANSEATIC spirit

www.hl-cruises.com

The Hanseatic Inspiration is the cruise ship that serves Toronto. Very cool

 

[Chris R.]

So I haven't seen many comments in dissent, so let me add mine. Cruise ships suck. They bring thousands of people to a single location for usually a day at most and pack into the most typical tourist crap making it so the lines are insane and nobody can get around that area. Many cities and countries are trying to get rid or or reduce the number of cruise ships coming.

 

[rdaner]

^Fair enough. Honestly I am more interested in how this increase will manifest in Toronto as far as demands on existing facilities and potential expansions.

And on that note Great Lakes Lines, which is starting up next year, will base the Victory I here and have a ship’s christening. So this a 202 passengers/80 staff with ~18 sailings. In addition the biggest company to operate steamboats on the Mississippi is entering the Great Lakes market.

I’m not sure about the capacity of the current terminal but it looks like volume will double to 40,000 passengers plus staff per year. And at that scale you start getting on-site hotels, restaurants and event venues at the terminal so I do think it is worth having a thread to compile ideas and see what is being done elsewhere because this isn’t going away and gives PortsToronto a much more secure and less contentious future than it has now! This of course started when I first read about the Noronic and Toronto’s history of cruise ships!

Just a few images to show the scale of these vessels.

 

[lenaitch]

So I haven't seen many comments in dissent, so let me add mine. Cruise ships suck. They bring thousands of people to a single location for usually a day at most and pack into the most typical tourist crap making it so the lines are insane and nobody can get around that area. Many cities and countries are trying to get rid or or reduce the number of cruise ships coming.

I tend to agree - you would never get me one one of those massive floating petri dishes, but some people love them. The ocean-going ships that ply the Caribbean carry several thousand people A few extra thousand people embarked on a small island is not something I would call fun. My brother and sister-in-law used to have a time share on Saint Martin. In the early days, there would be one ship in Philipsburg harbour and you could barely move in town. Towards the end there were typically four at any one time and it was chaos. North American-style highway coaches crawling along narrow, hilly roads dumping people at little beaches and villages.

But these are not those. Great Lakes cruise ships typically carry only a couple hundred people. Some people prefer the more 'flat water' cruise experience. When we live near Midland, when a ship was in town it was noticeable but far from overwhelming. My brother and sister-in-law did an eastern arctic cruise and I think it was a couple hundred as well. Another relative did an inside passage cruise from Vancouver to Alaska and the ship held (IIRC) six couple. Many people prefer the smaller venue.

 

[rdaner]

And passenger ships can be the focal point of regeneration and city building. Look at Kingston which used the SS Keewatin and Thousand Islands ships to anchor a new maritime museum on the waterfront. A maritime museum in The Portlands would be great! The Hearn?!

 

[ProjectEnd]

^Fair enough. Honestly I am more interested in how this increase will manifest in Toronto as far as demands on existing facilities and potential expansions.

And on that note Great Lakes Lines, which is starting up next year, will base the Victory I here and have a ship’s christening. So this a 202 passengers/80 staff with ~18 sailings. In addition the biggest company to operate steamboats on the Mississippi is entering the Great Lakes market.

I’m not sure about the capacity of the current terminal but it looks like volume will double to 40,000 passengers plus staff per year. And at that scale you start getting on-site hotels, restaurants and event venues at the terminal so I do think it is worth having a thread to compile ideas and see what is being done elsewhere because this isn’t going away and gives PortsToronto a much more secure and less contentious future than it has now! This of course started when I first read about the Noronic and Toronto’s history of cruise ships!

Just a few images to show the scale of these vessels.

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You do know what happened to the Noronic, right?

 

[rdaner]

I do! But was putting forward the more positive aspects. Biggest Great Lakes cruise ship of them all! And I have the mystery of ‘The Victorian Cylinder Ship’ in reserve to be used at the appropriate time!

 

[ProjectEnd]

I do! But was putting forward the more positive aspects. Biggest Great Lakes cruise ship of them all! And I have the mystery of ‘The Victorian Cylinder Ship’ in reserve to be used at the appropriate time!

We are getting off topic, but this is a nice little book if you're interested in this kind of thing: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/0919783805/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smid=&psc=1

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

So I haven't seen many comments in dissent, so let me add mine. Cruise ships suck. They bring thousands of people to a single location for usually a day at most and pack into the most typical tourist crap making it so the lines are insane and nobody can get around that area. Many cities and countries are trying to get rid or or reduce the number of cruise ships coming.

There's two ways to deal with cruise ships. 1 is to put all the amenities cruise passengers would need (bars, restaurants, brew pubs, sights, etc) right next to the port (see Halifax). The other is to have great transit connections from the ship port to the main parts of the city. This is what I've seen at European ports, often it was 2 km to get from the port to any amenities and those amenities were just a normal part of that city's urban fabric. There are so many sights that cruise passenger might want to see that the best thing would be to simply make great transit connections to the port.