[Amare]

What if it doesn't involve cutting a travel lane (for vehicles) ? What if the centre turn lane comes out (left hand turn lanes at lights remain).....but you get a 3M trail down one of the boulevards? Just asking.

I see that as an issue in and of itself in this particular case, as it would create pinch points along some key intersections (ie: Kipling and North Queen) which is already a congested mess ever since the city added traffic signals at Kipling and Judson. Remove those centre lanes and traffic on Kipling will be backed up all the way through to Norseman to the north, and backed up through to the Gardiner from the south. Simply put in my eyes, they are asking for trouble and it's going to create more problems than it will solve.

In fairness, maybe the low number is because of how inhospitable/unsafe the current conditions are........

I'm not going to suggest it will instantly become a cycling mecca...........

I'm a pretty frequent bike rider myself and use Bike Share, and heck i'd never consider using Kipling even if it had separated bike lanes. Where exactly are they expecting the trips to go and come from? I highly doubt workers in a 2 km radius of Kipling are going to use it to get to/from the industrial confines of Etobicoke. Nor do I see commuters using it to get to/from Kipling Station, and I dont see people taking a leisurely stroll along Kipling either. So the question becomes what's their end game with having bike lanes here?

I don't think that's a fair characterization of staff's thought process.

I'd be genuinely curious what their thought process would be for the Kipling Ave bike lanes because frankly I cant find a reason to justify the existence of it. It's akin to proposing bike lanes on North Queen St and saying it would be of benefit to anyone.

 

[TwinHuey]

Danforth Kingston

Update to my previous post on the public meeting:

Robert Zaichkowsky's Two Wheeled Politics blog has a more detailed description of the meeting, including an item he addressed that I missed.

The Kingston Road section does have 2 short segments that require the removal of one eastbound traffic lane. This is to accommodate the Waterfront Trail. To put this in perspective, the Chine Drive to Brimley segment is 600m and the Faircroft to Windy Ridge segment is 280m. The entire Kingston Road segment is 8 km.

While I'm in favour of the entire Danforth Kingston Complete Street as proposed, these short sections are a problem if we're trying to get Councillor Kandavel's support for the Kingston Road segment.

June 2024 Bloor Site Check (+ Danforth-Kingston Consultation)

A blog about cycling and political advocacy based in Toronto, Canada. (#BikeTO)

www.twowheeledpolitics.ca

Robert's blog also has a video taken of the meeting.

Listen to Councillor Kandavel's opening remarks and then you can fast forward to 32: , 46: and 58: to give you a sense of what the audience was like. I was particularly impressed with Manager of Cycling and Pedestrian Projects Becky Katz.

 

[Northern Light]

Toronto often has low public realm design standards that are almost laughable. Here, a utilitarian mini-highway barrier is seen as the aesthetically pleasing "final" design option.

I've seen permanent concrete planters with shrubs and perennials in other cities as the separator for separated bike lanes. I've seen a strip of trees as the separator. Here's a somewhat basic design from Vancouver that's nicer than anything we have (short of perhaps the flagship Martin Goodman Trail along Queens Quay). Here's another example.

The benefits to lush landscaped designs are multi-fold. They make cycling more relaxing and pleasant. They're aesthetically pleasing and calming, which can make even car-driving conservatives happy (especially if they're beautifying their neighbourhood and increasing their property values). As the trees mature, they'll add shade which will make cycling even more comfortable and pleasant as well.

Designs with landscaped buffers have been done for Sheppard, Queensway and Gerrard among others..............you'll see a lot more of that in the years ahead.

We've already introduced a few small bits on Dundas East and Danforth east of Dawes.

These two did not feature trees, due to utility conflicts, but trees will be incorporated in many designs:

Shabby Public Realm

You comments are spot on. One of the things I have noted, and will take decent photos of next growing season, are the plantings most often lining the physically concrete box separated bike lanes In Montreal. . Depending on the lane these planting areas are separated boxes, as shown in...

urbantoronto.ca

 

[ADRM]

North side of Bloor west of Avenue wrapping up.

 

[smably]

I'm a pretty frequent bike rider myself and use Bike Share, and heck i'd never consider using Kipling even if it had separated bike lanes. Where exactly are they expecting the trips to go and come from?

I would absolutely use separated bike lanes on Kipling if they connected to a safe cycling route on the Queensway. Being able to bike to IKEA would be amazing! Also that godforsaken Purolator depot.

 

[crs1026]

I would absolutely use separated bike lanes on Kipling if they connected to a safe cycling route on the Queensway. Being able to bike to IKEA would be amazing! Also that godforsaken Purolator depot.

Yes. One has to keep in mind that the Etobicoke of a few years from now will look different, and that creates opportunities. Certainly when Six Points is fully redeveloped, there will be a mass of new residents who will look for connectivity along Bloor and potentially to the Lakeshore. And with the Queensway already sprouting towers, soon there will be a whole new population there. It's too soon to know what services and amenities remain or grow along the Queensway but taking an optimistic path, there is potential for that street to have a street life that isn't there today ( It already has some neat restaurants and pubs, but they are mixed in with pretty low end retail... let's hope we see some commercial gentrification). (Digressive hint.... a streetcar extension along Queensway is my #1 fantasy vision, even if TTC isn't aligned to that). Cycling volumes along Bloor thru the Kingsway area will grow once the Six Points is redeveloped.....again, hoping that redevelopment east of Islington doesn't ravage commercial/retail storefronts in that area.
Pushing cycle tracks even further west on Bloor will finally establish a through cycling path to Centennial Park, which would do good things for the use of that park, and is constructive to improve recreational options for density along Dundas and Bloor and at Six Points.
My one reservation is whether we are underutilisin back streets. With Bloor and the Queensway having been suicide stretches for the past decade, I am accustomed to cycling using local streets eg Norseman, Chartwell, Shaver, Van Dusen.....maybe the best place for cyclist connectivity isn't on those main drags at all. I would challenge the Holydays to lay out a grid of cyclable routes that provide an alternative to having cycling along the main arterials, with changes to traffic lights and stop signage to facilitate that.... and tapping creeks and ravines. Build a trail alongside Mimico Creek from Lakeshore to Bonnyview, connect that to Grenview, and you are at Bloor without ever seeing a truck or bus alongside..

- Paul

 

[Amare]

I would absolutely use separated bike lanes on Kipling if they connected to a safe cycling route on the Queensway. Being able to bike to IKEA would be amazing! Also that godforsaken Purolator depot.

Is it safe to say you would also use Islington for the same purpose?

The point i'm trying to make is that a bike lane on Islington (a residential corridor with large retail centres) would generate far more use, and have a far less adverse impact compared to putting it along an Industrial corridor. Personally i'd love to bike to get the No Frills/Healthy Planet which are by Titan Road, or Cineplex on Queensway. I'd also like to bike IKEA as well (assuming there was actually a bike lane on Queenway which there isnt). There's not a single place along Kipling i'm going to bike to/from, and that's what i'm alluding to. Why put bike lanes on a corridor that will not be heavily used and have significant negative impacts on a heavily used bus route and trucks, compared to a corridor which would generate a significantly higher number of bike trips.

It doesnt make any sense.

 

[Northern Light]

Is it safe to say you would also use Islington for the same purpose?

The point i'm trying to make is that a bike lane on Islington (a residential corridor with large retail centres) would generate far more use, and have a far less adverse impact compared to putting it along an Industrial corridor. Personally i'd love to bike to get the No Frills/Healthy Planet which are by Titan Road, or Cineplex on Queensway. I'd also like to bike IKEA as well (assuming there was actually a bike lane on Queenway which there isnt).

There will be, its been approved for installation as far into Etobicoke as Royal York, further west will come later.

There's not a single place along Kipling i'm going to bike to/from, and that's what i'm alluding to. Why put bike lanes on a corridor that will not be heavily used and have significant negative impacts on a heavily used bus route and trucks, compared to a corridor which would generate a significantly higher number of bike trips.

It doesnt make any sense.

What about Humber College which is located at the foot of Kipling Avenue? Presumably not a likely destination for you, but certainly a meaningful destination for many, notably students, generally youthful.

 

[Amare]

There will be, its been approved for installation as far into Etobicoke as Royal York, further west will come later.

Now that's a corridor installation i''m in full support of and is long overdue, that's great to hear.

What about Humber College which is located at the foot of Kipling Avenue? Presumably not a likely destination for you, but certainly a meaningful destination for many, notably students, generally youthful.

I was actually thinking about Humber College and was going to make a point about that, but I purposefully omitted it.

I'd love for Bike Share to finally expand over to the Kipling/Queenway and Kipling station areas just to see how many students would actually attempt biking N-S from Kipling/Lake Shore to Kipling or Islington Station. I'd be willing to wager heavy amounts that there would not be any meaningful number of students who would do that trip.

Heck there's a quite significant number of students who travel from Long Branch to Humber College, but I barely see any students biking over between those two nodes even though there's a bike lane (not a great one) and multiple Bike Share docks along Lake Shore. The rides I see are more for leisurely rides as opposed to biking to/from campus. If there are barely any students who bike along that stretch, I highly doubt Kipling would be any more enticing of an opportunity.

 

[Northern Light]

My one reservation is whether we are underutilisin back streets. With Bloor and the Queensway having been suicide stretches for the past decade, I am accustomed to cycling using local streets eg Norseman, Chartwell, Shaver, Van Dusen.....

Here the challenge would be what @Amare discusses vis a vis Kipling. Do those 'minor' streets connect to where cyclists want to go?

I would argue the primary destinations will be (not necessarily in order)

a) Humber College Lakeshore

b) Major High Schools

c) Subway Stations

d) Grocery Stores

e) Major employers

An awful lot of the above will be found on major streets and you still end up needing to find a connection point from your minor streets.

Minor N-S streets also typically don't cross the railway corridor, or the Gardiner.

Build a trail alongside Mimico Creek from Lakeshore to Bonnyview, connect that to Grenview, and you are at Bloor without ever seeing a truck or bus alongside..

Interesting idea, a few downsides.

- Nowhere near Islington/Kipling

- Requires building at least one bridge over Mimico Creek and would eliminate the baseball diamond in Jeff Healey Park
unless you bought 3 or so adjacent homes so you could shift it over.

- The route you selected is largely free of sidewalks, but has legal parking on one or both sides of the street. That can't co-exist with a serious cycling facility. You would have to remove all or most on-street parking, not sure how
the neighbours would feel about that idea........trade one controversy fro another.

Even a bi-directional multi-use path here would require 3M, plus 0.8M buffer.

From a 7.5M cross section....the math doesn't add up. As the pink lines reveal, there's plenty of ROW there if we take people's front yard's away........but

I think you'd have to take 1.5M off all the front yards here.

Otherwise, this is just a signed bike route, nothing else.

Also I measure it as 400M longer than the straighter equivalent distance on Islington.

 

[slicecom]

Does it have to be either or? I think both Kipling and Islington should have bike lanes, but Kipling first because Royal York already exists close to Islington.

 

[Northern Light]

Does it have to be either or? I think both Kipling and Islington should have bike lanes

That's the plan, eventually (both)

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Final layer of asphalt has been laid down, laying down turf and painting lines will be the last thing to do for the segment on New Westminster from Centre St. to Bathurst (Thornhill, York Region).

 

[crs1026]

Here the challenge would be what @Amare discusses vis a vis Kipling. Do those 'minor' streets connect to where cyclists want to go?

(snip)

An awful lot of the above will be found on major streets and you still end up needing to find a connection point from your minor streets.

Good point....even if it's only the last two blocks, coming out of a sidestreet onto a major arterial demands a safe pathway to reach the destination.

As to destinations, I would think that connecting the entire commercial strip of Lakeshore Blvd and the emerging residential/mixed use corridor along the Queensway would generate a lot of "running errand"/ small package purchase use. There are lots of medical buildings and small businesses, coffee shops and restaurants along both, as well as on Bloor and Dundas.. School traffic I'm not so sure - helicopter parenting reigns, and parents would have to relax about letting kids commute on their own - and many older students use TTC already.

My impression is that the majority of high school and Humber students are not local, but connect to the subway and/or other bus routes eg at Kipling station, so the school-subway leg is not likely cycle attractive. Getting people to and from their residences to Subway and GO stations however would seem opportune.

Islington and Kipling (and 30th St) north from Lakeshore would add to the Lakeshore cycling route. My comments about Bonny-view/grenview is informed by the developments at Park Lawn and Christie Lands... the improvements there do need to extend all the way north to Bloor - Park Lawn, Berry and Prince Edward are problemmatic and the Humber trail is not that nice a connection at Old Mill.

Interesting idea, a few downsides.
- The route you selected is largely free of sidewalks, but has legal parking on one or both sides of the street. That can't co-exist with a serious cycling facility. You would have to remove all or most on-street parking, not sure how
the neighbours would feel about that idea........trade one controversy fro another.

Also good points. (my lack of design expertise shows, for sure). Having said that - the backstreet routes certainly work, although crossing main streets can be pain points. One can get from the south entrance to Kipling Subway over to Islington, for instance, using Fieldway and Van Dusen....but crossing Islington is dreadful unless one jogs south to a traffic light. Personally, I spend more trips and have more range by strategising the back streets than by using the new Bloor trail, but I'm just one data point.

- Paul