[DSC]

Clearly we will need to stop ALL parking on roadways too and, as noted above, no patios and certainly no road lane closures for developers. Sigh.

 

[J Bacon]

Most condos being approved in/near downtown today have very little parking, typical ratios are one space or 1.5 spaces to every 10 units.

It must then be added, that many of those comparatively few cars that do occupy parking in the new builds sit idle during rush hours. They are the grocery car, the camping car, the trip to see mom in Markham car.

Now, in the same breath, lets acknowledge that there are condos being built in more suburban, less transit centric locations with higher levels of parking.

True for downtown, but even at that low ratio you are still adding more cars to the road network that hasn't changed in decades.

But I think relatively few of those cars are being used to commute to the City core.

Why? For example any condo built near the DVP, it would be very easy to just jump on the highway to go downtown.
So you can't assume your fellow Torontonians are not driving around the city.

But I think a universal condemnation of lane removal is unreasonable. Its better to talk about objective policy standards

I agree, but the opposite assumption is also bad, that removing vehicle lanes to create bike lanes is universally "good" in all contexts.

 

[Northern Light]

Why? For example any condo built near the DVP, it would be very easy to just jump on the highway to go downtown.
So you can't assume your fellow Torontonians are not driving around the city.

You think there's room to go flying down the DVP in rush hour? I'm going to say 'Not so much'.

There aren't that many condos going up in close proximity to the DVP, but for argument's sake, if you bought at Eglinton/Don Mills, it would take you longer to reach downtown via the DVP, than the Don Mills bus and the subway; with travel time set to be shorter once the Crosstown opens.

I wouldn't say no one would make such a trip, but I think it would be uncommon.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

 

[Northern Light]

Ok, less debate about bike lanes and more photos of their construction/remediation; Bloor and St. George - September 19th, 2024:

Remediation in progress on one portion:

Warning for unremediated section:

Lets finish on a high note, streetscape the N/W corner looking good:

 

[J Bacon]

View attachment 597631
"Easy to drive down the DVP into downtown"
You sure you ever been to Toronto buddy?

Yes, sitting in traffic on a highway is not "hard".

 

[evandyk]

Tell that to all the whiny people interviewed by the Toronto Star et al so they can write their sob stories about Toronto traffic. You'd think driving across the city in 2024 is harder than giving birth to a child (I've never done either, so can't compare them myself).

 

[J Bacon]

Tell that to all the whiny people interviewed by the Toronto Star

Is it a good strategy to immediately downplay and write off the thoughts of your fellow citizens?

Driving IS getting more difficult through a static road network and increased population.

If you don't want to expand / build more roads ok fine, but how do you think people are going to feel when you do that but also start to take away road capacity?
They are going to start complaining up the chain and then you get heavy handed legislation like what was just proposed.

 

[adys123]

Is it a good strategy to immediately downplay and write off the thoughts of your fellow citizens?

Driving IS getting more difficult through a static road network and increased population.

If you don't want to expand / build more roads ok fine, but how do you think people are going to feel when you do that but also start to take away road capacity?
They are going to start complaining up the chain and then you get heavy handed legislation like what was just proposed.

Studies have consistently shown (backed by theory and empirical evidence) that general purpose lanes are the least efficient form of road capacity, it is important to note that you are in fact adding road capacity when you take away lanes. Land use and development patterns, as well as more of a focus on safety will lead to that capacity being filled.

The big challenge is that people like the status quo, and they don't want to be uncomfortable - but for personal growth and for societal growth - some discomfort must be accepted. Every societal benefit that we experience today is the result of past generations being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Change is hard, but we need progress.

 

[jmi22]

Yes, sitting in traffic on a highway is not "hard".

No, but people value their time and money spent on gas and thus make choices based on those trade offs. Maybe just read the first paragraph of the transportation planning article on Wikipedia and get back to us.

 

[J Bacon]

Studies have consistently shown (backed by theory and empirical evidence) that general purpose lanes are the least efficient form of road capacity, it is important to note that you are in fact adding road capacity when you take away lanes. Land use and development patterns, as well as more of a focus on safety will lead to that capacity being filled.

The big challenge is that people like the status quo, and they don't want to be uncomfortable - but for personal growth and for societal growth - some discomfort must be accepted. Every societal benefit that we experience today is the result of past generations being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Change is hard, but we need progress.

That's nice, what does that have to do with the wishes of the people?

Based on what you said, I argued to add capacity through the addition of bike lanes, but not at the expense of road lanes which only serves to inflame the taxpayer and provide the worst of all outcomes for everyone.

 

[jmi22]

Not sure what you're arguing here, but nothing connected to anything I've said?

You are talking about road network capacity, and modal split of incoming residents is quite an important part of determining how to utilize road space to maximize road capacity. Not sure how this could be clearer.

 

[Northern Light]

Guys, this has all the hallmarks of trolling at this point, in any event the discussion in the thread is again getting derailed.

This is not a thread to debate the virtues of cycle tracks, it is a thread to discuss proposals, consultations and construction to implement or improve same.

That's getting lost in all the noise.

 

[mr_content]

Depending on how the legislation is worded, municipalities could go ahead and install bike lanes anyway and just make motor vehicle lanes narrower. Works within the law and, in principle, would induce lower vehicle speeds and improve road safety.

Cyclists get bike lanes, Doug gets his car lanes and can continue cosplaying as mayor of Toronto. Everyone's a winner!

 

[evandyk]

You can't just say that replacing two shared traffic lanes ( 2 shared car/bike) with two separated traffic lanes (1 each car/bike) will reduce capacity. Especially if the change is paired with removing parking and reconfiguring right/left turning lanes.