[nfitz]

That drop in the RL cost estimate is truly remarkable. By now, I am used to all transit construction funding demands going up steadily.

I'd put it in the too good to be true category, until TTC or city comes out with something.

Though the city amounts are in year of spending. Metrolinx is notorious about using an early fixed year for costing (they are still reporting Finch West and Eglinton in 2010 dollars!). It's possible that is 2018 dollars or something ... which might account for the difference.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The problem is that the media portrays the ridership as much lower than it actually is. It's nothing mind blowing, but it's higher than the DRL will be north of Bloor IIRC. It's also the last station on the line - I hope the subway isn't running at 50% capacity or else it'll have real capacity issues further down the line.

I think you remembered incorrectly. The Relief Line north of Bloor was projected to have 20,000 PPHPD, which is nearly as much as Line 2’s peak hour ridership today. The SSE is 7,300 PPHPD, roughly a third the peak hour ridership of DRL

 

[innsertnamehere]

To be fair there are a bunch of different numbers that have been put around for the DRL. I seem to recall it dropping significantly after Eglinton especially though.

Still, 7,300 out of a single station is pretty good.

 

[Rainforest]

I think you remembered incorrectly. The Relief Line north of Bloor was projected to have 20,000 PPHPD, which is nearly as much as Line 2’s peak hour ridership today. The SSE is 7,300 PPHPD, roughly a third the peak hour ridership of DRL

Sure, RL North can reach 20,000 pphpd just north of Danforth, if it goes up all the way to Sheppard or so.

But its north-most section, Sheppard to York Mills or to Lawrence, will carry less than SSE's 7,300.

And if we make RL North shorter (say, just to Eglinton), then it won't be able to achieve 20,000 north of Danforth.

 

[syn]

The DRL could be three times the cost of the SSE and it wouldn't really matter.

It's a critical, necessary project. The Yonge Line is already dangerously overcrowded. Given the density and ridership in the downtown core, there's no other solution that can address the problem effectively. It has to be a subway.

The SSE is a 'nice to have', something that could be addressed by cheaper and/or more effective solutions. That the price and value have increased and decreased so dramatically, respectively, over a relatively short period of time tells us all we need to know about this project.

I'm very curious to see what new estimate will come out, especially since the province keeps telling us they'll be doing a three stop, privately funded extension instead.

 

[OneCity]

The DRL could be three times the cost of the SSE and it wouldn't really matter.

It's a critical, necessary project. The Yonge Line is already dangerously overcrowded. Given the density and ridership in the downtown core, there's no other solution that can address the problem effectively. It has to be a subway.

The SSE is a 'nice to have', something that could be addressed by cheaper and/or more effective solutions. That the price and value have increased and decreased so dramatically, respectively, over a relatively short period of time tells us all we need to know about this project.

I'm very curious to see what new estimate will come out, especially since the province keeps telling us they'll be doing a three stop, privately funded extension instead.

Those most concerned about the current cost estimates are the ones that have strongly opposed improving the RT's connectivity all along and likewise introducing a new transfer on Sheppard. This line certainly could have been built cheaper removing transfer but there was never any interest by some councillors as all that mattered in their world to was the DRL.

This will be great line once the Province puts the stops back into the design. Better connected, more centralized stops and more reliability that will be convenient for commuters and spur massive re-development growth in the Centre by being connected directly the Citys main transit artery.

Even when you exclude the polarized territorial debates, going backwards to find a new plan hasn't been a reasonable option for years due to the RTs condition, the impact on other plans, and the amount of investment proposals around the Centre which have been coming with the announcement of a connected subway. Its past time to get building for both much needed growth and relief together.

 

[Rainforest]

Well, technically it is possible to alleviate the dangerous conditions on the Yonge line without building the RL. That can be done by making tax changes that discourage employment in the downtown areas, or force the employers located in downtown to introduce non-standard office hours. Thus, the "no cost is too high" approach is as wrong for RL as it is for SSE.

I don't think the above measures are desirable or necessary; at this point, I hope that RL will be built and it will happen reasonably soon.

However it is remarkable that those same people who complained that "no cost is too high for SSE supporters", now will panic after reading the suggestion that alternatives to the RL are physically possible.

 

[Hopkins123]

Well, technically it is possible to alleviate the dangerous conditions on the Yonge line without building the RL. That can be done by making tax changes that discourage employment in the downtown areas, or force the employers located in downtown to introduce non-standard office hours. Thus, the "no cost is too high" approach is as wrong for RL as it is for SSE.

I don't think the above measures are desirable or necessary; at this point, I hope that RL will be built and it will happen reasonably soon.

However it is remarkable that those same people who complained that "no cost is too high for SSE supporters", now will panic after reading the suggestion that alternatives to the RL are physically possible.

John Tory wasn't wrong at all. SmartTrack could've supplanted the need for much of a fully tunneled DRL for decades to come. Much of the King/Queen corridor, East York and the Don Mills corridor is already paralleled by existing tracks which could be easily modified to suit a metro's needs far simpler than TBMs. Imagine the projected ballpark $7 billion for just Phase 1 of the DRL from Pape to Osgoode alone instead was enough to build the entire Mt Dennis to Oriole/Leslie stretch because we thought of a more practical way using surface pre-existing sections to deliver mass transit a hell of a lot sooner than pie-in-the-sky expansions that seemingly get thrown out every time there's a new change in government.

The fear with SSE supporters, I find, is that we're so far along in the process why jinx things now by complaining about new alignments or whatnot. For better or worse, better to tunnel underneath McCowan than risk reopening this can of worms at this point as no one will ever truly come to a consensus no matter what. The only priority for me, and for most real benefactors of this project... the people, is the direct Kennedy to Scarborough Centre connection. Saving $200 million here or there is trivial. If people thought like this in the 1950s, I bet we wouldn't have a subway system to begin with. Certainly not one with so many stations.

 

[nfitz]

John Tory wasn't wrong at all. SmartTrack could've supplanted the need for much of a fully tunneled DRL for decades to come. Much of the King/Queen corridor, East York and the Don Mills corridor is already paralleled by existing tracks which could be easily modified to suit a metro's needs far simpler than TBMs.

Why then did the studies show that SmartTrack did little to nothing to relieve the demand on the Yonge line, or the transfers at Yonge-Bloor station?

Which is no surprise given that travel time on the subway from Richmond Hill (Langstaff GO) with all those stops is about the same as the slow winding Richmond Hill line. And that the downtown station with the most arrivals in AM peak is Dundas, which is no where near Union Station.

 

[Rainforest]

John Tory wasn't wrong at all. SmartTrack could've supplanted the need for much of a fully tunneled DRL for decades to come. Much of the King/Queen corridor, East York and the Don Mills corridor is already paralleled by existing tracks which could be easily modified to suit a metro's needs far simpler than TBMs. Imagine the projected ballpark $7 billion for just Phase 1 of the DRL from Pape to Osgoode alone instead was enough to build the entire Mt Dennis to Oriole/Leslie stretch because we thought of a more practical way using surface pre-existing sections to deliver mass transit a hell of a lot sooner than pie-in-the-sky expansions that seemingly get thrown out every time there's a new change in government.

Using the mainline corridors for downtown relief is a pretty good idea, although it will require quite a bit of tunneling, too. The downtown section for sure, then parts of the route in the East Toronto, and Scarborough Junction if we want to use the Uxbridge sub. And for the most effective relief, a new route in the Pape - Don Mills corridor will be needed, and most of that has to be tunneled. The total cost would be comparable to the current RL South plan, but for a greater long-term benefit.

John Tory wasn't wrong, he incorporated a good idea into his campaign platform, but unfortunately he didn't deliver much. The Pape - Don Mills corridor wasn't included in his plan, not even as a future phase. Then, he watered down the Mt Dennis - Mulliken route by not designing it for a subway-like frequency. And finally, he didn't seem to secure his plan against the change of provincial government. As of now, the new stations are postponed. The latter isn't entirely in his control, but couldn't he during the first full 4-year term manage his signature project in a way that makes it harder for the province to undo the city's stake?

The fear with SSE supporters, I find, is that we're so far along in the process why jinx things now by complaining about new alignments or whatnot. For better or worse, better to tunnel underneath McCowan than risk reopening this can of worms at this point as no one will ever truly come to a consensus no matter what. The only priority for me, and for most real benefactors of this project... the people, is the direct Kennedy to Scarborough Centre connection. Saving $200 million here or there is trivial. If people thought like this in the 1950s, I bet we wouldn't have a subway system to begin with. Certainly not one with so many stations.

I totally understand that. In theory there are better ways to connect Scarborough than the SSE project, but they are too uncertain to abandon the existing project and start working on something new.

 

[Rainforest]

Why then did the studies show that SmartTrack did little to nothing to relieve the demand on the Yonge line, or the transfers at Yonge-Bloor station?

Which is no surprise given that travel time on the subway from Richmond Hill (Langstaff GO) with all those stops is about the same as the slow winding Richmond Hill line. And that the downtown station with the most arrivals in AM peak is Dundas, which is no where near Union Station.

The Richmond Hill line wasn't included in the SmartTrack plan, anyway.

Still, the absence of the relief effect in those studies is a bit surprising. One would think that the Finch East, Mulliken, Agincourt stations would divert some riders who otherwise would end up taking the Yonge line. Maybe, the frequency of SmartTrack is so limited that any positive effect is trumped by the forecast demand growth?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Richmond Hill line wasn't included in the SmartTrack plan, anyway.

Still, the absence of the relief effect in those studies is a bit surprising. One would think that the Finch East, Mulliken, Agincourt stations would divert some riders who otherwise would end up taking the Yonge line. Maybe, the frequency of SmartTrack is so limited that any positive effect is trumped by the forecast demand growth?

Low frequencies + transfers the take forever + the line being so far east, pretty much made SmartTrack useless for Yonge Line relief.

 

[syn]

Poll suggests Torontonians deeply divided over Doug Ford’s subway upload plans | The Star


"the pollster found building the downtown relief line was the top transit priority for 38 per cent of those surveyed and the second most important transportation project for 17 per cent, while 45 per cent had no response."

"extending the Sheppard subway to the Scarborough Town Centre was the top priority for 13 per cent and the second biggest for 15 per cent, with 73 per cent having no response."

"the Danforth line to the Scarborough Town Centre, in place of the existing LRT, fared even worse, with just 11 per cent saying it was the top priority and 11 per cent saying it was second, while 78 per cent had no response."

 

[Rainforest]

So, 22% of all Torontonians think that SSE is either #1 or #2 priority. That's pretty reasonable, since this project only affects part of the city. Most of the Etobicoke, North York, or old Toronto residents wouldn't use SSE anyway, hence it is natural for them not to follow this project and not to have an opinion about it.

If projects like Finch W, Eglinton W, Eglinton E were included in a similar kind of poll, they would fare similarly. Each would score in the range of 15% to 25%, as the majority of residents won't be affected by them, and have no reason to follow.

If we only build transit projects that reach > 50% name recognition, we would never have any rapid transit built, except the original Yonge subway to Eglinton (and even that one wouldn't be certain).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So, 22% of all Torontonians think that SSE is either #1 or #2 priority. That's pretty reasonable, since this project only affects part of the city. Most of the Etobicoke, North York, or old Toronto residents wouldn't use SSE anyway, hence it is natural for them not to follow this project and not to have an opinion about it.

If projects like Finch W, Eglinton W, Eglinton E were included in a similar kind of poll, they would fare similarly. Each would score in the range of 15% to 25%, as the majority of residents won't be affected by them, and have no reason to follow.

If we only build transit projects that reach > 50% name recognition, we would never have any rapid transit built, except the original Yonge subway to Eglinton (and even that one wouldn't be certain).

Eglinton W would get more because of the airport. Also more people feel Sheppard East is a bigger priority FWIW, if you take that tack.