TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Is it under construction yet?
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Rainforest
Senior Member
AoD, an even better description that further raises the question of if Toronto is "falling behind" or if everything is actually moving forward appropriately? If we have so much economic and densification potential in small geographic pockets in the central city (such that they can drive and exceed city-wide economic and population growth expectations) what argument is there for acceleration of the slate of transit improvements? I think the argument then becomes an equity issue not an economic development issue. Basically, we want to enhance suburban transit links by subsidizing suburban residents. That actually becomes the primary purpose of the capital being invested.
Suburban residents are part of "we". Residents of all areas pay taxes in various forms: property taxes, income taxes that take part in funding transit expansion, sales taxes etc. IMO, improving the service for existing residents should be the primary goal of transit development. Supporting growth is great but it should be seen as the secondary goal.
Rainforest
Senior Member
The outcome of Transit City is positive overall: we are certainly getting the Eglinton line built, and very likely getting Finch West as well. Eglinton light rail is very essential for the midtown, it badly needs an east-west transit line with protection against the traffic congestion. Eglinton buses are just unusable at times.
At the same time, it is fair to say that Transit City plan was a) based on light rail only, ignoring without a good reason any other modes, and b) the cost estimates were seriously low-balled. A better balanced plan that includes some subways, some light rail, and some BRT, supported by better-quality cost estimates, could be executed more smoothly.
Perhaps David Miller and his team thought that by composing their plan of light rail lines only, they will limit the debate about technology choices (any group that wants another mode, could be told that their corridor is getting light rail because all other corridors are getting light rail as well). Didn't work that way.
Anyway, I prefer to commend Miller for what he accomplished, instead of complaining about what he didn't.
At the same time, it is fair to say that Transit City plan was a) based on light rail only, ignoring without a good reason any other modes, and b) the cost estimates were seriously low-balled. A better balanced plan that includes some subways, some light rail, and some BRT, supported by better-quality cost estimates, could be executed more smoothly.
Perhaps David Miller and his team thought that by composing their plan of light rail lines only, they will limit the debate about technology choices (any group that wants another mode, could be told that their corridor is getting light rail because all other corridors are getting light rail as well). Didn't work that way.
Anyway, I prefer to commend Miller for what he accomplished, instead of complaining about what he didn't.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Speaking of John Tory and his transit credentials: definitely positive chapters are the expansion of Express Bus services, and the King Street Pilot. Express buses make many trips across the city noticeably faster.
We know that King Pilot isn't his brainchild, but he came onboard; the mayor's position matters. King Pilot would be unthinkable with Rob Ford as mayor, and it didn't happen with Miller either (perhaps the time wasn't right).
The fact that Eglinton project sails smoothly towards completion is, in some way, Tory's asset. Obviously he had nothing to do with designing or funding that project, but the very fact that he tries not to meddle into transit plans already under way, is definitely helpful in this case.
Tory's handling of SmartTrack is disappointing thought. I never expected him to deliver as much as he promised, but hoped that he will deliver a fraction of it. Several additional GO stations + more frequent GO service within the city + some form of fare integration is (should be) within the Toronto Mayor's realm of possible. The fact that Tory doesn't want to seek re-election in 2022, while the Provincial premier likely wants a good showing in the 2022 elections, should give additional leverage to the Mayor. And yet, no visible progress so far, only reports and open houses. I can only hope that some deals are in place, just not revealed yet.
We know that King Pilot isn't his brainchild, but he came onboard; the mayor's position matters. King Pilot would be unthinkable with Rob Ford as mayor, and it didn't happen with Miller either (perhaps the time wasn't right).
The fact that Eglinton project sails smoothly towards completion is, in some way, Tory's asset. Obviously he had nothing to do with designing or funding that project, but the very fact that he tries not to meddle into transit plans already under way, is definitely helpful in this case.
Tory's handling of SmartTrack is disappointing thought. I never expected him to deliver as much as he promised, but hoped that he will deliver a fraction of it. Several additional GO stations + more frequent GO service within the city + some form of fare integration is (should be) within the Toronto Mayor's realm of possible. The fact that Tory doesn't want to seek re-election in 2022, while the Provincial premier likely wants a good showing in the 2022 elections, should give additional leverage to the Mayor. And yet, no visible progress so far, only reports and open houses. I can only hope that some deals are in place, just not revealed yet.
nfitz
Superstar
The King Street pilot was proposed by the TTC board under Mayor Lastman. I believe it was Councillor Miller who proposed it.We know that King Pilot isn't his brainchild, but he came onboard; the mayor's position matters. King Pilot would be unthinkable with Rob Ford as mayor, and it didn't happen with Miller either (perhaps the time wasn't right).
rbt
Senior Member
The King Street pilot was proposed by the TTC board under Mayor Lastman. I believe it was Councillor Miller who proposed it.
King, St. Clair, a Yonge busway (Finch to Steeles), and the Express Network were proposed under Lastmans watch in 2001 (page 7). The Minutes don't show any motions on the topic at that time.
They also started police blitzes of the existing King rush-hour restrictions, which proved completely ineffective.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Anyway, I prefer to commend Miller for what he accomplished, instead of complaining about what he didn't.
Fascinating that the only non-regional transit under construction right now was derived from Transit City.
Meanwhile across two premiers, two mayors, the Scarborough Subway extension, which as enjoyed near-rabid levels of political support, is still in limbo. The circumstances are fascinating.
I feel like there's a very real possibility we're just going to end up deciding to upgrade the SRT to ICTS Mk. 3 vehicles if this thing doesn't start construction in the next three or four years. At that point, we will have been debating this matter for nearly 20 years. This is a shameful and disgraceful performance -- Toronto's equivalent of the UK's Brexit shitshow.
OneCity
Senior Member
Fascinating that the only non-regional transit under construction right now was derived from Transit City.
Meanwhile across two premiers, two mayors, the Scarborough Subway extension, which as enjoyed near-rabid levels of political support, is still in limbo. The circumstances are fascinating.
I feel like there's a very real possibility we're just going to end up deciding to upgrade the SRT to ICTS Mk. 3 vehicles if this thing doesn't start construction in the next three or four years. At that point, we will have been debating this matter for nearly 20 years. This is a shameful and disgraceful performance -- Toronto's equivalent of the UK's Brexit shitshow.
The design only started in Torys first term. As once transit City was overturned the City refused to work with Fords connected LRT plan, the Liberals then pushed the City changed to a 3 stop subway and the design started under Tory with the new glitch of Smarttrack. Only at that point did the preliminary design begin and detailed design is now progressing thru the too long but standard design stages towards the finish line
The only small but unfortunate issue left for any delay is amending the design to add back other stops the City removed and staging them into construction efficiently. Since no one can overturn or filibuster the Ford Conservatives from adding these other stops or uploading capital subway control Id say we closer than ever to seeing real progress. Moreso less at risk as all three leaders at the Provincial level are on board to move forward so there will be no extreme games like what we saw at City hall.
Zero chance of stand-alone ICTS Mk 3 after the shitshow we witnessed with the RT and at City hall to get the Centre connected. All parties now support the subway to some degree, and all but one politician in Scarborough from all levels and parties support subway for this line.
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nfitz
Superstar
If you dig back a few months further even early, it came out of a February 16, 2001 motion from Commissioner Miller.King, St. Clair, a Yonge busway (Finch to Steeles), and the Express Network were proposed under Lastmans watch in 2001 (page 7). The Minutes don't show any motions on the topic at that time.
They also started police blitzes of the existing King rush-hour restrictions, which proved completely ineffective.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The design only started in Torys first term. As once transit City was overturned the City refused to work with Fords connected LRT plan, the Liberals then pushed the City changed to a 3 stop subway and the design started under Tory with the new glitch of Smarttrack. Only at that point did the preliminary design begin and detailed design is now progressing thru the too long but standard design stages towards the finish line
The only small but unfortunate glitch left for any delay is amending the design to add back other stops the City removed and staging them into construction efficiently. Since no one can overturn or filibuster the Ford Conservatives from adding these other stops or uploading capital subway control Id say we closer than ever to seeing real progress. Moreso less at risk as all three leaders at the Provincial level are on board to move forward so there will be no extreme games like what we saw at City hall.
Zero chance of stand-alone ICTS Mk 3 after the shitshow we witnessed with the RT and at City hall to get the Centre connected. All parties now support the subway to some degree, and all but one politician in Scarborough from all levels and parties support subway for this line.
Just becomes something ostensibly has widespread political support, doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. Sometimes politicians say they support something that they really don’t care for, out of political expediency. Sometimes economic realities, such as a recession, force plans to be shelved (and there’s a very real chance of a recession in the near term). Other times, even if a politician does genuinely support a policy, it has to be shelved to address higher priority concerns. The words and actions of this government do not give me hope that we’ll see this built anytime soon (I’ll remind everyone that our transport minister, 14 years into this process, said it’s too early to speculate on when construction might begin).
If somehow we get to 2022 without any construction, I’ll probably revert back to supporting the ICTS upgrade plan. Something needs to be built, and at that point, after 20 years of debate, it will be clear that as a city and province we’re incapable of doing better for ourselves. It will be time to cut our losses, and take the simplest, quickest and cheapest way out of this mess.
OneCity
Senior Member
Just becomes something ostensibly has widespread political support, doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. Sometimes politicians say they support something that they really don’t care for, out of political expediency. Sometimes economic realities, such as a recession, force plans to be shelved (and there’s a very real chance of a recession in the near term). Other times, even if a politician does genuinely support a policy, it has to be shelved to address higher priority concerns. The words and actions of this government do not give me hope that we’ll see this built anytime soon (I’ll remind everyone that our transport minister, 14 years into this process, said it’s too early to speculate on when construction might begin).
If somehow we get to 2022 without any construction, I’ll probably revert back to supporting the ICTS upgrade plan. Something needs to be built, and at that point, after 20 years of debate, it will be clear that as a city and province we’re incapable of doing better for ourselves. It will be time to cut our losses, and take the simplest, quickest and cheapest way out of this mess.
Quickest? The is not true at all.
We would still need to go thru the same length full pre-design to detailed design process to procure for ICTS. Construction cant happen without it and that would mean in a perfect world with no debate starting the design over again from 0% pre-design. EA's for other project would need to be redone to reflect this change causing delays. And make no mistake there would be serious debate once again and hell raised by residents, investors and politicians. Believe it or not, moving forward with the subway is the quickest option.
Cheapest is not something you'll simply force upon an area that has been screwed over with a poorly designed stand-alone technology and have waited past the expiry date. The RT was a mistake on may levels and more than technology needs to be improved. While they went with the most expensive option this subway improves upon all issues with the RT from connectivity, reliability, and central stop locations.
We currently have more political support for the subway from the real powers that be then ever before and this type of political support is what it takes to get things built. No one is happy with the process but it actually progressing at the moment on a standard design timeline.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The SRT is crumbling, we need a replacement:
Want to upgrade it to Mk 3 vehicles? No, okay how about LRT + extension? Oh, don’t like LRT? Okay, how about a three-stop subway extension? Okay, that’s too expensive, how about one-stop plus EELRT plus Smarttrack? Oh, Smarttrack was a scam and EELRT isn’t ever being built? Okay, how about a three-stop extension with the private sector paying? Oh, nobody wants to pay... [to be continued]
This thing is gonna be a legendary study in decision paralysis in the future. This whole thing is so embarrassing, shameful and disgraceful. Massive metro systems have been built in the time it’s taken us to debate this matter.
Idk how Toronto has gotten to be as successful as we are, because we certainly don’t deserve it. Montreal should’ve alphas been Canada’s premier city. You see what they’re doing over there while we run around like a bunch of hapless idiots? Thanks, René Lévesque.
Want to upgrade it to Mk 3 vehicles? No, okay how about LRT + extension? Oh, don’t like LRT? Okay, how about a three-stop subway extension? Okay, that’s too expensive, how about one-stop plus EELRT plus Smarttrack? Oh, Smarttrack was a scam and EELRT isn’t ever being built? Okay, how about a three-stop extension with the private sector paying? Oh, nobody wants to pay... [to be continued]
This thing is gonna be a legendary study in decision paralysis in the future. This whole thing is so embarrassing, shameful and disgraceful. Massive metro systems have been built in the time it’s taken us to debate this matter.
Idk how Toronto has gotten to be as successful as we are, because we certainly don’t deserve it. Montreal should’ve alphas been Canada’s premier city. You see what they’re doing over there while we run around like a bunch of hapless idiots? Thanks, René Lévesque.
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OneCity
Senior Member
The SRT is crumbling, we need a replacement:
Want to upgrade it to Mk 3 vehicles? No, okay how about LRT + extension? Oh, don’t like LRT? Okay, how about a three-stop subway extension? Okay, that’s too expensive, how about one-stop plus EELRT plus Smarttrack? Oh, Smarttrack was a scam and EELRT isn’t ever being built? Okay, how about a three-stop extension with the private sector paying? Oh, nobody wants to pay... [to be continued]
This thing is gonna be a legendary study in decision paralysis in the future. This whole thing is so embarrassing and disgraceful. Massive metro systems have been built in the time it’s taken us to debate this matter.
I agree the politics and lack of funding model to grow public transit has been an epic disaster. And still is as we piece meal funds
But I also believe you are capitulating as far as this line goes. The subway decision is clear and supported by all those that actually matter. Its getting built
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The SRT is crumbling, we need a replacement:
Want to upgrade it to Mk 3 vehicles? No, okay how about LRT + extension? Oh, don’t like LRT? Okay, how about a three-stop subway extension? Okay, that’s too expensive, how about one-stop plus EELRT plus Smarttrack? Oh, Smarttrack was a scam and EELRT isn’t ever being built? Okay, how about a three-stop extension with the private sector paying? Oh, nobody wants to pay... [to be continued]
This thing is gonna be a legendary study in decision paralysis in the future. This whole thing is so embarrassing, shameful and disgraceful. Massive metro systems have been built in the time it’s taken us to debate this matter.
Idk how Toronto has gotten to be as successful as we are, because we certainly don’t deserve it. Montreal should’ve alphas been Canada’s premier city. You see what they’re doing over there while we run around like a bunch of hapless idiots? Thanks, René Lévesque.
Oh, and let’s not forget that this goes back to the 70s, with our predictably ill-advised decision to use unproven, untested technology for the SRT, when a simple, cheap rapid transit streetcar connector line would have sufficed, while simultaneously deciding not to build the DRL, in exchange for a subway on Eglinton West of all place, because we were afraid of a little development downtown.
Idk of other cities and provinces are like this, or if we’re just exceptionally prone to making moronic decisions
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
in exchange for a subway on Eglinton West of all place, because we were afraid of a little development downtown.
That subway was filled in btw, because we make dumb, moronic decisions. It’s the Toronto/Ontario way!